Just something I've been thinking about recently... what exactly IS ministry? What is it supposed to look like? Let me explain just why I've been thinking about what seems to be such an easy-to-answer question...
Everywhere I look, there are people who are called into ministry. These are the people that are supposed to be leading the rest of us. It seems, however, that people are starting to confuse the word minister with condemn. Ministry seems to be an excuse for people to tell everybody else what they're doing wrong. Does EVERYONE do this? No. But I'm worried about this. Even unbelievers are seeing this. They seem to believe that almost all christians are hypocrites or judgmental. On top of that, I believe that many christians are beginning to simply accept this. I believe they are becoming too comfortable with going to the pastor of a church than going to God. We are starting to see pastors as the final word. THIS is the danger behind denominations, I think. Relying more on the word of your pastor than the Word of God. I'm not saying denominations are evil. I just believe that we are shifting the authority from God to... us. I guess THAT'S the main thing that's bothering me.
And now that THAT'S said, I have something else that's actually JUST NOW hit me... I think that we are "using" God's Word to help us accomplish this. Kind of like... "Oh... This is the answer, let me find some scriptures that agree with me" instead of "Based off of my reading of the Bible, I believe this is the answer." Satan did something similar. He wanted Jesus to abuse his power... submit himself to Satan... so he found scriptures that helped to support his claims.
So, I think the thing to do is to humble oneself. Ministers and pastors need to become humble. Those that went through years and years of college and training need to take a step down. We need to get off of the throne and let God take His rightful seat where He belongs.
Sorry for the rant. I realize that this may seem just kinda scattered... I just kinda typed while I thought... like thinking aloud, I guess. I hope that this act of randomness will either help you or provoke insightful conversation so as to help myself. Either way, thanks for listening! :angel:
OVER and UNDER, as in reference to God placing a pastors UNDER SHEPHERDS to CHRIST, (overseer) over His flock/sheep/ people/church. If a person is HEAD, does not this place that person as being OVER those who are UNDER him/her?
God is HEAD OVER CHIRST, Christ is HEAD OVER man, man is HEAD OVER woman.
God has placed spiritual leaders over His church as Paul states in Ephesians chapter 4, Peter writes about the under-shepherd and Christ as the Chief Shepherd who is OVER the undershepherd in I Peter chapter 5, and again Paul writes about those placed in authority OVER us in Romans chapter 13.
Benny, how can you be equal to your pastor, yeah, maybe in knowledge, but not in leadership in your church. And if you are not equal to those in authority OVER you in your home, work place, or college or government, how can you be equal to your pastor who is head (leadship) in your church... hummmm, I discern that you just don't want to be bossed around or told what to do, as in stubbornness... lol you know very well what it mean to be over and under in authority, and in submission to those who are over us...:party::rocknroll::yay: LOL...
*God has placed spiritual leaders over His church as Paul states in Ephesians chapter 4, Peter writes about the under-shepherd and Christ as the Chief Shepherd who is OVER the undershepherd in I Peter chapter 5, and again Paul writes about those placed in authority OVER us in Romans chapter 13.
Eph 4 appears to me about all carig for one another, I do not see hierarchy here but maybe I use a different translation, don't have time atm to look into Greek.
Rom 13 is about the state. Of course we are under the law of the state we live in. I am not to break Swiss laws here, and you in the US are not to break US laws. But that has nothing at all to do with the church.
The only thing that fits here from my pov is 1. Pe 5,5. It tells the young to be submissive to the elder, which is certainly a rule in every culture and not Chritianity alone. I wonder if this would be true even if I see an elder leading me apart from the Lord.
I woud not say that I was under the elder if I could decide to not go with him to heresy, if this was applicable. Of course I do respect the elders, also every pastor whether he agrees with me in most points or not. But I will not follow him everywhere, because I will only follow Jesus everywhere. So I understand myself as being under Christ and not under the pastor, though I do listen to what the pastor says and consider it very much, maybe more than I consider the words of a non pastor, but after all, he has no real authority over me, only Christ has, and whenever I see him not beeing in accordance with Christ, I will not follow the pastor.
So this is why I say a pastor is not over his flock, but besides them.
Benny, how can you be equal to your pastor, yeah, maybe in knowledge, but not in leadership in your church. And if you are not equal to those in authority OVER you in your home, work place, or college or government, how can you be equal to your pastor who is head (leadship) in your church... hummmm, I discern that you just don't want to be bossed around or told what to do, as in stubbornness... lol you know very well what it mean to be over and under in authority, and in submission to those who are over us...
There has to be order. And this order is made up that way, that the pastor is leading the congregation. But leading does not mean over, it means in front. He goes ahead and we follow. But I will not follow him if he uses a wrong way. The sheep know the voice of their shepard. My shepar is Christ, the pastor is more maybe like a shepard dog, supporting Christ. If the dog has bad training an runs after some game instead of caring for the flock, I do not see why I should be following him, for he is under the shepard like me, though he has a different position. But he is not OVER me.
Of course I don't want to be bssed around. Who likes this anyway? And who that is bossing around seeks the Lord in doing so? Wouldn't he rather try to explain things to me in love than boss me around about things?
I do in no way challange authority. There are some who are in leadership as well in visible church as in the state. And I am to do as they say, as long as I do not see them being in opposition to Christ. If I was under them, I would not be responsible for worshipping the devil if those with authority told me to do so, but I am in responsibility in this case, so in this point they are not over me. But if they raise tither, I'll be paying them, if they change service times from 10 am to 9 am, I'll get up earlier.
If this not liking to be bossed around is what you call stubbornness, than we have a different understanding of the term stubborn.
Maybe I made myself clearer now. I am not sure if evrybody sees it like I do, I am not sure if you guys would say it was right to tell the pastor when he was wrong. I would, and I would let him explain why I was wrong and make up my mind. But I'd be trying to seek and understand myself, the pastor being the guide of my thoughts. I am not going to just take whatever he tells me. This kind of dealing with authority drove Germany right into hell a few decades ago, and with Germany all of Europe. Maybe this is the difference in our cultural backgrounds that leads to different ideas of authority or leadership. We honour our leaders today by questioning them.
sure I am. St. Paul church in Bern, Switzerland. But don't prsume things to be here like in the USA.
What does beng part of a local church imply for you? Maybe this is a better way to get you an answer, because in Germany or Switzerland being part of a local church is normal. You belong to the church where you live, it's a parochial system. It does not mean that you have ever spoken to the pastor or that the pastor knows you.
The church is organised differently here than in the USA, where in many cases it's a system where you go to the church you like and not the one that's closest to your home.
I hope to bring some perspective here. I think all of you have valid points. After serving the last 30 years in MINISTRY to youth and children, I want to commend Garrett for his insight into the psychology that exists behind the scenes in too many churches. Being clergy is an occupation, a calling. In my opinion, every Christian has a calling. So, in that sense we are all equally human, and clergy sin just like the rest of the congregants. That lines up with scripture that we all sin and therefore are equal in God's sight. In God's eyes there is no position. Everyone is the same. I think that is why some people have problems with the words "over" and "under."
But, lets talk about that now. A church must have heirarchy of authority to function just like a business or household. God has set up that heirarchy in His Word, but Garrett is correct that sometimes that heirachy slips out from under God's intentions. We are back to all Christian's being sinners. It is an innate bent for the natural man to struggle with pride, power, control, and competitiveness. When a godly man slips, it can impact the whole church. I have personally witnessed churches that wanted to have the largest building, largest congregation, most activities, biggest gym...and forget to be servants and administer God's Word. Instead, trading discipleship for entertainment. When I read Garrett's words about leaders stepping down, I did not think of dismantling the church structure, but to coin an old phrase "step down from their high horse." When personal pride or collective church pride is allowed to continue, the church as God's family ceases to exist, just to be replaced by a social club with a religious name.
But PJ, you are correct too. These godly men that meet the standard of requirements in Timothy spend their occupational hours praying, studying the Bible, participating in continuing education and training, pastor accountability fellowships, and more. It is unfortunate and disruptive to the church family when people use our equality as believers to oppose the authority of the church leadership. Pastor's engaged in sin should be confronted. The Bible has several passages on how to confront in love. Revealing someone's sin to them is for the purpose of repentance and restoration, not condemnation and distruction. And no, a congregant should not follow a clergyman into sin, but in our tabloid happy society, our "equal sinners" delight in destroying the authority of a "higher power." We humans all too easily slip out from under God's umbrella of proper church authority.
Garrett, I hope God revealing these truths to you is a start of God's call on your life to serve and disciple. Jesus came to heal the sick. The well don't need a physician. Unfortunately, many churches today reject the same people that the Pharisees criticized Jesus for befriending. You don't have to serve a congregation in order to be called to minister God's Word and healing. There are many wonderful parachurch organizations. Exciting things are happening in Haiti and Chile. You Go Garrett!
Sorry this is so long, but hope it is encouraging to someone.
Hey Rose. First of all, welcome to the forums! It's great to have ya! Second, thanks for the response. It made a lot of sense. And thanks, also for the encouragement. I'm still kind of wrestling with what I need to be doing right now. I'm definitely going into "ministry", but my idea of what that is supposed to be is changing. I felt called into youth ministry, and I'm currently volunteering at a church here in Arkansas until I'm old enough to apply for a full-time position, but I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm called to STAY in youth ministry, or if that was God's way of getting my attention or bringing me to a specific place. I'm still not quite sure, but I'm ready for whatever it is. It's an exciting path, and I'm looking forward to it! Thanks, again!
You are still very young. I remember trying to figure out God's call at your age. May I encourage you to try as many different opportunities as possible? I tried Adult Christian Ed. and found it kind of dry and boring. Even tried church planting for a while. 'Course Youth are never boring, but it didn't take all that long to discover that children are my passion.
I'll pray for you. Check in once in a while with updates, so I'll know how to keep praying.
Sorry, I'm just getting back to you, and I don't have long to spend. But I would like to give you a few definitions to ponder over and place them in context to your comments.
Also, you must understand that being in Switzerland, Germany, or England, or in Asia has nothing to di with the order rank in the church. Its a given... God gave the pastor, elder, etc as shepherd ( spiritual leader)to be over His sheep/flock/people in the church.
Now its your choice wheteher or not you follow his/her lead or not. And NO! you never follow those who are leading you astray, but if you also read Jerimiah chapter 23, you will find where God has also promised to take care of those shepherds (pastors/spiritual leaders who lead His people astray and scatter them from the fold. God is a man who does not make threats, but He does keep PROMISES...
In references to stubborn (although I was somewhat joking) but I also do feel I am right (lol)....
STUBBORN: Refusing to yeild ,, obey, or comply, resisting doggedly, self-determined, obstinate, hard to handle, persistant manner.
UNDER: A lower place, beneath, in an inferior or subordinate position, or rank.
God , not man, has placed spiritual leaders just as he has place man in positions of leadership in rank to be oversers of the home and church. This desn't mean that anyone is to follow a person in such leadership position who is not following himself under rank in Christ. If your pastor is not leading properly and is not teaching God's word and rightly dividing the word of truth, no, you're are not to follow him down the path to hell. But you are to seek counseling and let this be known to other men/woman of God, and get directions. You can't lead yourself, not can sheep. This is why God has given everyone a measure (a certian proportion) of spiritual gifts in certain areas of ministry to the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry... And Paul spells it all out in Romans chapter 12, how and what we are to do with the gifts in church ministry to accomplish God's intended purposes for His people.
Hope this helps. But unless you read and receive in your spirit what God has to say in fullness about ranks of authority in the church. You will have a mind set that is against what God says, because you will have determined in your own mind that you will do things your way, only because a man you don't look up to in leadership of the church is telling you. When in fact, you will not be doing God's preferred way, and You become a law unto yourself, which means you will find yourself acting out in stubborn, and rebellious behavior to God's word, and in response to man's spiritual leadership authority OVER you.
I feel you're ok, you're just searching, this always happens when a person is new in their studies of God's word, and have not come into much expereince and is growning into maturity. We all try to stand on our own. Its no diffenrent as when we get married, our parents nor can anyone tell us anything about marriage or having a husband or wife , or children, because we seek our own independance and freedom to know to it all. But when the chips are down, where do we go,,, running home to mums and dad for counsel in the very things they had already tried to instruct us in and about, before anything happened... LOL... you're fine... just keep reading the word.:hearts::angel:
