in recent threads I have noticed some people tossing around scripture quotes to prove arguments and sometimes hardly anything else. I got in some cases the idea that the application of scripture is lead by a certain basic thought, and scripture is used to back this up.
It has been stated several times that the scripture was infalibe. So based on the infability of scripture people argumented with scripture quotes to back up their thoughts.
Now I wonder in which way people here believe that scripture is infallible. I wonder which kind of application of scripture people here consider right, and which kind they consider wrong.
What is the position of scripture? What is the position of exegesis? What is the position of hermeneutics for people in this form?
I want to start out giving my thoughts, mabe I add to it or make things clearer in following posts. I find that I cannot make my thoughts clear in first times, but I try to get to the point
I do have my problems ith speaking of the scripture as being infallible. After all, scripture is a thing, a book, not alive, not doing anything on its own. How can scripture than be more infallible than an orange or a hammer?
One might say: An orange does not contain thoughts, scripture does, and those thoughts can be wrong or right. So in this way scripture can be more infallible than a hammer. A hammer contains no thoughts.
I am still not convinced, as the thoughts are not in the text we read, but the text constitutes those thoughts in our brains. Maybe it's not even the text alone but also other things that we have experienced etc. Like in the morning I have read about big companies firing workers and raising managment payments at the same time, so this causes certain thoughts when reading about the rich having a hard time getting into heaven etc.
A text itself does not do anything, it does not contain anything, it does not tell anything on its own. Take a text in a foreign language you don't know. It will tel you nothing. Or will it? Maybe you get some thoughts looking at the strange signs and symbols of a strange language, completely unrelated to the text itself but at the same time they were started by you looking at the text...
What I want to say is that I think you always need somebody alive to have thoughts, a nonliving thing does not think and cannot contain thoughts. A dead thing can not even make thoughts for others, it is always somebody living who has thoughts and makes thoughts, produces them, based on things we see, hear, read, smell, remember, whatever.
So this is also true for the bible, if we can say that the bible is a dead thing. I do think that the bible is dead. It is not infallible, as a dead thing does not fit into categories as fallibility or infallibility. The bible is not God, because God consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and those are alive. Bible is not human, and not animal, not even plant. Not alive.
Everything we get from the bible is what we get from it by reading it ourselves, so all action comes either from us (as we are alive) or from somebody else, also alive, like the Holy Spirit, or simply somebody who explains things to us or tells us how he or she sees it. This person can him- or herself be guided by the Hoy Spirit. Or possibly aso by Satan, who knows...?
So I read the bible mysef, wehn I read it, and I tend not to think of it as a set of rules, because wide parts of the bible are not rules, but stories told. There are letters, there are arguments of every kind in scripture. Some things are said without being in the focus, others are in focus. I try to find out what the author of a biblical text wanted to say by writing it, or what a redactor wanted to say, as many biblical texts are the result of a redaction that changed the original ideas of different authors, for example the story of the great flood compared to the epic of Gilgamesh...
Reading the bibe and getting ideas about what authors and redactors might have said alone brings me nothing. This is only exegesis. It is important to what extent and for what I use the findings of bible lecture, so to say: What is my target. Aso the question what do I presume before, like what I wrote above...
I can find myself hermeneutics, there are various on the market, even when you reduce your search to theology or even prtestant theology.
But I still think, this is not enough: I myself cannot get anything infallible out of the bible, as whatever I get from it is what I made of it, as stated above. And I am falible, so whatever I get out of the bible myself is fallible, and this is true for every other person, however pious he or she might be, for nobody can get rid of his or her carnal mind.
It is my strong believe, that we need necessaryly the Holy Spirit to get anything good from the bible. If we try to get something from it without the Holy Spirit we can only get false thoughts in the end. And we cannot control the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit is God and God cannot be and will not be controlled by men.
This is why I am doubtful about quoting scripture in postings. I do so myself, and I wonder hwo much of it is good. I think it can ony be okay if there was some personal revelation about that passage, so we are only repeating what God told us personally through this piece of scripture.
So I read my scripture and hope for the Lord to open it to me. At some pieces He did, with most He didn't, and many are connected with passages where He spoke to me.
This is why I hardly back up my words on here with scripture (this and being lazy searching and not knowing so much of it by heart as others do).
Taking some scripture that gets in my line of thoughts can be supporting what I think, but also be meant in a different way. Without revelation from God, how can I know? So if I cannot know, how can I bring it forth here on the forums?
So I rather want to speak of what I was told by the Lord, or maybe what I think I was told. I want to speak about what I experienced in the Spirit, and I am also looking for people sharing their thoughts with me. Because there is something I have not spoke about yet:
What if we are mislead, how can we know?
Actually know, like knowing 2+2=4 we can never do (if you guys know the movie Matrix you know the thought that we can not know anything for sure).
But we are all followers of Christ, and we are told to be in contact, to meet for service and help one another, have love for one another. So we also speak about our personal revelations, and if there are others with the same revelation this is a hint, or if there are some who have a revelation that tells us differently. And finally there is always scripture to be read by us, waiting for further revelation, for furtherly being touched by Him. He will correct us if we go wrong one way or another. And our sisters and brothers can give us hints, hopefully without condemning (as this does only drive poeple further apart from one another, and this is a result ony Satan can like, that people are far away from one another).
So what do you guys think about scripture not being arguments for debate, but content to be spoken about? About the Holy Spirit not being the researched object of discussion (and thus a to-be-controlled-by-men-object) but being a sought but uncontrollable base for ourselves.
Tell me about your thoughts, and God bless you all.
In the beginin was God..an the Word was with God...an God spoke the Word and gave Breath of Life...Jesus is the Living Word...So...many believe the Bible bein the Inspired/Spoken/Written Word...an Accept it as "The Living Word"...there fore Alive...not Dead...xo
In the beginin was God..an the Word was with God...an God spoke the Word and gave Breath of Life...Jesus is the Living Word...So...many believe the Bible bein the Inspired/Spoken/Written Word...an Accept it as "The Living Word"...there fore Alive...not Dead...xo
Amen to that response that is the answer in the nut shell.
Have you ever seen the bible itself Do anything? I mean not the Spirit through the bible, but the bible itself. I tried to explain how I mean it anyway, so please tell me what makes you think calling the bible a dead book would mean at the same time saying the bible was not true.
I tend to get the impression that some people who speak about the truth of the bible mean it in a scientific way, which would mean that scientific methods would be superior to faith and experiences in the Holy Spirit, so I like to call the bible true in its message but not necessarily on the surface. But this question is why I opened the thread in the Philosophy subforum, this here has a slightly different content.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Yes !!! Open up a persons perception, understandin an show the way ta Salvation and unto our Lord Jesus the Christ.An with the Holy Spirit guiding us will Convict us of our Sins, And cause us ta Repent�Fall down upon our knees an Worship the LORD an name above all names�Jesus/Yeshua�
*I tend to get the impression that some people who speak about the truth of the bible mean it in a scientific way,
Truth is Life�Sin an Lies are Death�it doesn�t take Science or Carnal mind ta prove this�Its all Spiritual not Scientific�I tend ta get the impression that Man thinks to much�lol�
*Oh, new responses. So you two would say there was no difference between the book of the bible and Jesus Christ our Lord?
I will speak for my self only�GOD/Jesus the Christ/Holy Spirit�are all present in the Bible�GOD the father is in heaven�Jesus the Christ is at His side this very moment�an the Holy Spirit�well...Jesus the Christ sent ta be our Helper after he left this earthly plane an Acsended ta the Father�So�( How I see it ) The only difference is�The Bible an the Holy Spirit are Here�Now in this Moment in this World an in the Physical and Spiritual�.Jesus the Christ is beside Father GOD in Heaven an not Here�Now in this very Moment in this World in the Physical / Flesh�BUT...He is here in the Spiritual with the Holy Spirit�.
Ima purty sure some will disagree with me�an that�s OK�cuz we All be Different�an yet�All the same�.xo
Listen to what you're saying... this is why I stated that it sounds as if you are frustrated and confused. Or maybe its me being confused by your comments when you say: "I do think that the Bible is dead," It is not infallible, and the Bible is not God, and not alive."
How can you say these things if you say you're are a Born again Christinas who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, the power of His blood shed on the cross for the remission of OUR sins, through His suffering death.
Are you hearing what Philip and GJ have expressed about Jesus? How can you as a Crhistin THINK or BELIEVE that the BIBLE IS DEAD AND IS NOT ALIVE:nahnah:
The Bible is very much alive, fulfilled with power, and because it is the infalliable word of God speaking, this makes the Bible God Himself in writing.
But I understand what is happening, see this is why even thorugh I have a degree in Biblical Studies and soon Ph.D, I which I only sought to gain these degrees for myself. And not to be anyone of importance or to think I would know more than anyone about the Bible. You know why?... because everything I learned in seminary, and everything you and anyone who has attended college in Biblical Studies ot thoelogy, are taught how to study scriptures and study the Bible the way MAN says you are to study it. I have reject such, and had much problems with profs in a few classes.
I depned totaly on the Holy Spirit to interpret for me, and then I check commentaries of those trusted scholars I find who also rely on The Holy Spirit, to see if what I think the scriptures are saying, to compare and contrast, what I get out of the scriptures. If what they get out of the scriptures is equal to what I get, then I know I'm on the right path.
But when a person only rely on what they get out of the scriptures, this is when false teachings and doctrine come into place.
God nor His Holy word are NOT to be analytically interpreted, (John chapter 14, Jesus tells us the Holy Spirit of God will lead us into undersatnd His truth,this is why so much misunderstanding of His word in many churches and faiths, and among Christians causes division among. Many are interpreting scriptures on thier own by man's methods, but when a person has received REVELATION from the Holy Spirit into scripture, there is agreement. I would guess this maybe some of your problems.
Try just reading the word and relax and allow the Holy Spirit to bring you into an understanding. But first you must BELEIEVE that the Bible is God speaking and that it is ALIVE AND A BURNING FIRE.
BTW, my Loooong answer isent no differ than your loooong comment. :yay::hearts: I think we both are long winded:rocknroll:
I see the bible as the full and only truthful message from God to the people on this earth. It reveals His purpose with His creation and also confirms his power and wisdom over the entire universe.
It contains the truth of the right way to go and it also contains the truth of the wrong way to go.
I am also aware that I am fully blind and therefore will not see. It must be shown to me. God has decided to what extent I may understand and grasp His word. Some (or even most) of it will always be concealed for me.
My eyes can be opened by a teacher or a preacher.
It can also occur to me in my heart or in a dream or vision while meditating on the subject.
It also can take some time before I want to open my eyes and then if I see, it is not seldom that I must overcome my own will to accept this new truth, especially when it is something highly inconvenient for me, myself and I.
But always, whatever and whoever comes up with an answer, (even if it is myself), I must always be able to find this answer confirmed in the bible. Even if it means that I have to study a yet unread bible book. (Yes I have not yet read every book, I am still studying the bible)
Quoting bible verses is not always sufficient for me. I must feel the words, they must become alive to me. One should be able to explain what the words mean (and what not!)
This is rather different than looking and searching in the bible to back up your own convictions, it is looking to confirm what you have just experienced or learned. If this is indeed the right thing to believe. If this is the truth.
Of course, prayer is of exceptional importance in this process. I say process, because to me it is.
The bilbe is therefore both a source of truth and a backup for a possible other truth.
I am never impressed by people who quote half the bible in order to make a point.
Yet on the other hand, if you quote a bible verse, you must also mention where this verse is to be found.
Everyone likes to think of him or herself that we base our opinon on the bible. Maybe that is why we all come up with bible verses so much.
Also writing about it, is different than talking about it. I suppose in a verbal debate, bible verses would not be as frequently quoted as in these "written" debates.
As to gospel music. I too am easily bored with the 13 in a dozen Hallelujah and Christ-died-for-you lyrics. As to the music... it sounds to me like a happy funeral or a sad wedding...
