Although, I am ordained as an Evangelist/Missionary, my views are very different than many women in ministry in that, I do not think God intended or has called women to be as PASTORS over a church. I'm not speaking about His call on women in ministry or the spreading of the gospel, because there are many examples of women in ministry in the Old and New Testament.
My view and reasoning, is based on what is in Ephesians chapter5, and God's setup of the original family in the beginning with Adam and Eve over the garden (home) which is like unto the church. He put man in charge of the garden, just as he put man in charge of the home.
On the other hand, I feel, if there is not a man to be in this position, and a woman minister is available, she is able to stand in until a man is there to take over. I base this on Genesis chapter 29, wherein Raechel is recorded as being the first woman shepherdess tending sheep, up UNTIL Jacon came , then she turned it over to him. Same principle...
God has an order of roles and postions for the man and the woman, and the unity of marriage is compared and symbolic to the church. And just as He never intended nor purposed in the beginning nor called or placed women to be heads of households, He never called or place a woman head of His church.
When the man is out of place, it is reason for the woman to take the lead and be head of her household, BUT, this was not in God's original painting of the family. When a man and woman are married they are one therefore, if the man is the pastor of a church, would it not go to reason that his wife is co-pastor along side of him? Therefore, she would be UNDER his covering yet, she still does not have authority OVER her husband OR the church. She is only CO-pastor with him.Just as she would be co-head of the household along side of her husband in the home.
What your thoughts about women who have the title of PASTOR over the church?
Do you think the SBC is wrong for their actions in this case?
Baptists to Cut Ties with Ga. Church Over Female Pastor
By Audrey Barrick|Christian Post Reporter
A more than 95-year-old church in Atlanta may be ousted from the Southern Baptist Convention over a woman pastor.
The Rev. Mimi Walker has been serving as co-pastor at Druid Hills Baptist Church with her husband, the Rev. Graham Walker, since 2003. But earlier this month, leaders of the Georgia Baptist Convention recommended cutting ties with the local congregation.
"It seems sad that they decided to go backwards in time," Mimi Walker told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I'm not sure what the value is of trying to go back in time when women were held in subservience."
According to the Southern Baptist Convention's 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, the office of pastor is "limited to men as qualified by Scripture."
In keeping with the confession statement, the state convention voted on March 16 to declare Druid Hills "not a cooperating church."
It added, "The GBC has never been opposed to women serving in ministry positions other than pastor," according to Associated Baptist Press.
This is the second time the Georgia Baptist Convention has moved toward severing ties with a local church over a female pastor. Last year, the convention voted to end its relationship with First Baptist Church in Decatur over the congregation's decision to bring a woman to the pulpit. Julie Pennington-Russell became senior pastor of First Baptist in 2007.
"I�ve seen women in the ministry and worked with women in Presbyterian and Methodist churches," Walker told AJC. "They are moving forward in the process of keeping women involved in the ministry and moving toward equality.
"Our disagreement is related to how you interpret Scripture."
Amid ongoing conflicts over female pastors, some Southern Baptist leaders have made clarifications to what they believe.
Dr. Richard Land, president of The Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said the Baptist Faith and Message does not state that "women are to be subservient to men." They are of equal worth before God, he stated earlier.
And though women are gifted for service in the church, Land says the New Testament teaches that "a woman is not to usurp authority over the man" and thus women are not to serve as pastors.
The Georgia Baptist Convention, which has roughly 3,600 churches and is one of 41 state conventions throughout the country, will vote in November on the recommendation to sever ties.
Your church is not on compliance with God's word regarding this issue. There is no such thing as a co-Pastor being a woman. Please show me scriptures that would support what your church and Pastor is doing here.
How is a pastor an authority anyway, or in any way "above" those being pastored?
Aren't we all equal before God? Isn't that why many reject the idea of the Catholic church that has the bishops as teachers being supreme to laymen?
Isn't a pastor nothing more than one who gives input? For us to see other options? Besides the counseling I mean...
Are we not all to read the bible ourselves, to study ourselves? To have the relation to God ourselves? How do you call a pastor and a bishop then call an "authority"?
I do not say "don't liste to your pastor", but I say: It is us who stand before God, not anybody we are following. So no pastor, neither man nor woman is having authority over others, man or woman.
That said, I want to answer to you, Walter:
You said: The scriptures clearly make it a GENDER SPECIFIC position. "the husband of one wife". A woman cannot be a husband.
Abedjau: The scripture you cited spoke of man. It is no wonder that it is gender specific. Paul wrote about a man that wants to become bishop. Then he said he shall be a husband of one woman. I am not sure if he meant he has to have exactly one woman or not more than one, but this is not the question here. What Paul didn't speak about was women. Neither did he prohibit it to women, nor did he say anything else about women there. He spoke of men with the wish to become bishop. So let's look at the scripture closely.
You said: Additionally it also states that a woman is not to teach or usurp authority over the man. Again Paul establishes the Gender specific roles.
Abedjau: About the authority I wrote above. About Paul being gender specific. No doubt about that. About Paul stating his own opinion at times: We know he does and he points it out. But all of that does not say that in the case of woman pastors there was a prohibition. Pau does not write: Women are not to be pastor or bishop and state that it was the will of God.
You said: I have to disagree in that the position of a Pastor, Elder, Bishop, is not dependent upon 1 Cor 14:34 as the qualifications for those positions are Gender specific confirmed in 1 Tim 2:1-2.
Abedjau: I do not see how pastor, elder etc is gender specific. Paul starts out speaking of man that want to do that service. That all he says afterwards is gender specific is only clear, it has to be as a man cannot be a woman. Maybe Paul did not even think about women holding that position, as times were different and people thought more conservatively. We don't know anything about what Paul would have said on women being elders or bihops, as he doesn't write about it.
You said: You are correct in that services were not to be interrupted by a woman. During services men would get up and ask questions and also give a prophesy or a Psalm, etc. Women were not permitted to do this.
Abedjau: At least about the prophetising you are wrong.
1. Cor 11, 5: But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
So Paul speaks here about women prophetising. And he does not tell them to not do so, he says they are to have their head covered (though the translation of the Greek is realy hard and not sure here). So I still think 1. Cor 14, 34 is about women interrupting the sermon, an not about women being not allowed to pastor and speak sermons themselves.
When you read about what Paul writes before it is about prophets and the order in service. He states that prophets should speak one after the other. So his concern at this part of the letter seems to be about people interrupting order, thus not about one single woman doing the sermon, but rather about women asking during sermon, interrupting etc. There seems to have been a probem with some women who would rather speak out than think on their own before. In the end he states again: Let all things be done decently and in order. It's about service not ending up in chaos rather than gender roles. I find it very hard and doubtful to think otherwise, especially the more I read it again and again an think about it. It just woudn't make sense in the course of the letter to go from order in service to gender roles and back to order.
You said: I have to disagree with you here because Paul was not giving his "opinion".
Abedjau: I read "I suffer not women to teach" etc. He suffers not, he does not speak about the Lord it seems.
You said: He did not do this in 1 Tim2 nor 1 Cor 14
Abedjau: I still say: 1. Cor 14 looks more like chatting within service or asking interruptively 1. Tim 2 is what Paul wants and says. He said "I suffer not", he was giving advise. I read it rather like Paul saying: "I wouldn't do it". Paul doesn't speak about the Lord's command here. He speaks his own mind and bases it on Eve being decieved rather than Adam. Of course people can follow this thinking, if they are conservative. But I do not see a rue here, honestly...
You said: This has nothing to do with leadership positions in the churches. To try and take this passage which is dealing with the "spiritual relationship" with Christ is not a good defense for women being able to be Pastors. After all that would then be a direct contradiction in scripture and from Paul since it was Paul who wrote on both issues.
Abedjau: As I stated above I read the passages in question differently, so the way I read it there is no contradiction. I agree with you that one can make a difference between the siritual relationship to Christ and what you cal leadership. But still I wonder: What is this leader to be? Someone that tells us ho to understand scripture? Aren't we to read it ourselves? Someone we have to trust more than our own findings? Or just somebody who gives opinion to consider as well...?
And I just do not see how there should be a difference in those things. If a woman tells me about her relation to Christ can't this give me help and show a way to grow closer to Him? Just because I am male?
You said: Yes, men cannot be wives and wives cannot be men therefore since a Bishop, Elder and Pastor are required by the all inspired Word of God to be HUSBANDS, precludes any possibility of a woman holding those positions without being in direct disobedience to God.
Abedjau: No, they are not required to be husbands. A male bishop, Elder etc has to be the husband of ONE woman, so he shouldn't have 5 women at home, which was possible in ancient times.
You said: Yes you are missing some critical points and with all due respect, you have some faulty reasoning.
Abedjau: Then help me please and don't accuse me for faulty reasoning. But do not want me to just folow what you say without trying to get my conscience in accordance with it. I cannot claim to believe something I do not know by heart to be right. I know by heart that the Lord died for me an thus saved me. I do not know by heart that He don't want women to pastor.
You said: Yes you are missing the point. The "times" Paul lived in are not relevant to God's commands as neither are these times any different regarding God's commands. The New Testament instructions written back then are also for today regardless of "womens rights". Christians are to go by a different standard than the "world's standard". Are standard is Christ's commands.
Abedjau: I do not care about the worl's standard. And I did not say that the times played a role, they do not in God's ways. But: If Paul says something to be his idea and not the Lord's, I think about what times Paul lived in. He lived 2000 years ago, so maybe he didn't see the necessity to write about women being bishops, and maybe God didn't see the necessity as well. All I know is that the bible doesn't say: It is the Lord's comman that woman are not a pastor or bishop or elder.
You quoted 1. Cor 14, 37f. Paul is speaking about the prophets here again, to which he wrote before to speak one after the other. And he writes further that this was the Lord's command. I do not see how this is connected with women being pastors (yes, this strengthens my first thought that the whol passage had nothing to do at all with women preaching). Those who ignore it, that they should speak in order one after the other shoul be ignored (for tey disobey the command of the Lord and thus cannot be prophets but only false prophets).
Anyway I appreciate very much your long answer. I seek to get a deeper insight into the Hoy Scripture. But please forgive me, I canot take as right what I cannot see as right, and yet I am nt convinced by you. I hope you do not see it as stubbornness. I want the right answers and not the easy answers.
There are biblical examples of secular women leaders and prophets in the bible. I think our current concept of "pastor" is a little misconstrued.
1 Corinthians 14:27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40Let all things be done decently and in order.
In context, I think that verse is talking about speaking in tongues only. Maybe there were some women in Corinth being obnoxious and loud, or pretending to speak in tongues like some people do today.
1 Timothy 2:9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
"The word, he�sychia, translated �quietness� in 1 Timothy 2:11 and silent in verse 12, does not mean complete silence or no talking. It is clearly used elsewhere (Acts 22:2; 2 Thes. 3:12) to mean �settled down, undisturbed, not unruly. A different word (sigao�) means �to be silent, to say nothing� (cf. Luke 18:39; 1 Cor. 14:34).�3 Paul is advocating orderliness in this verse."
So...I believe women can speak in church, have sermons, expound on scripture, and share their testimony. I do not believe women are supposed to be church leaders.
Women are just different...thankfully. They're usually quite a bit more compassionate, more emotional, more giving, more trusting, more tolerant. I try to imagine a drill sergeant with those qualities and it makes me laugh. Can you imagine an army unit that was trained and led by that kind of officer? I know some women that break the mold, but really...I just think it's obvious that God created the different genders with different qualities and roles. Not with "better"...just different. Complimentary. It would be pretty boring if men and women were the same. And personally, I think that God only set up the male leadership because of sin, and when sin is gone it will be back on more equal footing.
When two marry,the two become one. Could your head only be Pastor? Or does it take your whole body?
Also, I have never found a church that I agree with 100%. I don't agree with teaching the spiritual gifts, even if you believe in them. We are told to preach the Gospel, not the gifts. Anyway, that's just my thoughts.
That's kinda good point, Leon...but I don't think that marrying a architect makes a person an architect. I could see a elder's wife helping/supporting or even taking over some of the duties...but I don't think it would make her a elder. I suppose I could see her operating under her husbands spiritual position as long as they were agreed on everything. Kinda like God and the prophets. That makes sense.
WALTER: Jesus most certainly told us this through his written word which He can never contradict or change. That would make Christ a liar. Women who are pastors are in direct disobedience to GOD, to Christ Jesus, to His written word. Any woman who says she is "annointed" of or called into the ministry to be a Pastor, Elder or Bishop, (which are all the same thing) by God or Jesus is a liar and the truth is not in her.
My question To you or any other Walter was do you recognize the anointing of God?
I did not say if a woman says she is anointed!!
Walter the question is Do you recognize the anointing?
Sorry, but this topic is a discussion about our views about Women As Pastor or Copastors along side her husband Over the Church as pertaining to the article that I posted.
Please don't get off course, into another denomination's defintion and/or their doctrine as to thier views on anointing is... let's stay on topic ... Thank you...:applause:
Abedjau, Philip, Leon, and Mark I think all of you have made spiritual great points. We all agree that God is soveregin, and He can do what He pleases, when He pleases, where He pleases, how He pleases, and with whom He pleases.
The facts remain that man was created first and God did place him in authority over the household and His church, as I have stated. We also know that the man and woman are two in one according to God's divine order. And just as God relates the church to the family, and so states that if a man isn't able to care for his home, he is unable to care for his church, as the marriage is symbolic of the church...
Again, God ordained man to be leader in the home, and when the man is not in the home the woman must take the lead role. My view is is they are two in one spiritually inthe home, they should also be seen as two in one in the church. If the man is pastor this would make his wife co-pastor as a team. Leon, I think you brought that out, if she is called into the minsitry.Not all pastor's wves are called into ministr, so that would make a difference.
Mark you stated that just because a man is an architect doesnt make his wife coarchitect with him. This is true, but being an architect is a personal desire as an occupation or profession, whereas ministry is an anointed called ordained by God.
So what is the definition of the word PASTOR?
And what is the definition of CO-PASTOR?
Aquilla (Pastor) and Prisicilla (his wife copastor were a team and had a church in their home. And in the book of Acts chapter 18, tels us that THEY both explained the word properly to Apollos about the things of God.
And another thing a woman was the first to carrying the word of God the gospel , the Good News of Jesus to the disciples even before they got it. Mary Magdalene and the other women carried spoke God's words to the disciples AFTER his resurrection. So that alone should tells you something about God being in charge.
And Anna the prophetess assited Simeon in temple on the day Jesus was blessed. There are many women in leadership positions in the Bible under the covering of a man doing God's work.
I say, if men who are in the pulpit don't stop being pimps, God is ging to sit them all down, and He is going to allow women to take over, or else the rocks will cry otu!:glow::rocknroll:
SBC should not have disassociated themselves from this couple just because the wive served as co-pastor along side of her husband. This is what I think is displeasing to God more than she being a copastor. This position did not place her in authority over him or the church anymore than she being the pastor's wife put her in authority over the church as his wife.
Sorry, but this topic is a discussion about our views about Women As Pastor or Copastors along side her husband Over the Church as pertaining to the article that I posted.
Please don't get off course, into another denomination's defintion and/or their doctrine as to thier views on anointing is... let's stay on topic ... Thank you...
WALTER: Perhaps you would do better in chastising Phillip since he is the one bringing up the questions. I am fully aware of what this topic is. Perhaps Phillip is attempting to make a point to this discussion and that is what "HE" is the one asking the questions to which I am attempting to find out what he means.
ELLA: Abedjau, Philip, Leon, and Mark I think all of you have made spiritual great points. We all agree that God is soveregin, and He can do what He pleases, when He pleases, where He pleases, how He pleases, and with whom He pleases.
WALTER: Well that is true that God is sovereign but that does not mean HE can contradict His written word. His word is more than abundantly clear in that a woman under no circumstances can ever be a Pastor, Elder or Bishop or co-pastor. Period.
ELLA: The facts remain that man was created first and God did place him in authority over the household and His church, as I have stated. We also know that the man and woman are two in one according to God's divine order. And just as God relates the church to the family, and so states that if a man isn't able to care for his home, he is unable to care for his church, as the marriage is symbolic of the church...
WALTER: Ok...I'll agree with that.
ELLA: Again, God ordained man to be leader in the home, and when the man is not in the home the woman must take the lead role. My view is is they are two in one spiritually inthe home, they should also be seen as two in one in the church. If the man is pastor this would make his wife co-pastor as a team. Leon, I think you brought that out, if she is called into the minsitry.Not all pastor's wves are called into ministr, so that would make a difference.
WALTER: Sorry Ella but you are dead wrong. No where in scripture does it make any statement or implication that a woman who is married to a Pastor can be a co-pastor. You are trying to use faulty human reasoning to justify what scriptures do not permit, what GOD and Jesus do not permit.
ELLA: Mark you stated that just because a man is an architect doesnt make his wife coarchitect with him. This is true, but being an architect is a personal desire as an occupation or profession, whereas ministry is an anointed called ordained by God.
WALTER: Perhaps but not everyone who is a Pastor, Elder or Bishop is called by God. Some are in those positions because they "think" they were called but weren't. Especially women. God can never call a woman to those specified leadership positions within the church.
ELLA: So what is the definition of the word PASTOR?
And what is the definition of CO-PASTOR?
WALTER: The definition is clearly spelled out. A HUSBAND of one wife. A co-pastor would have the same requirements so a woman cannot be a co-Pastor unless God changes her gender and I don't believe that will ever happen. LOL
ELLA: Aquilla (Pastor) and Prisicilla (his wife copastor were a team and had a church in their home. And in the book of Acts chapter 18, tels us that THEY both explained the word properly to Apollos about the things of God.
WALTER: Aquila was not a Pastor and his wife was not a co-Pastor. No scripture states this whatsoever. They merely had a home that was big enough to hold the local church when they gathered together. This is typical of that time. People would hold their church gatherings in homes. The owners of the homes were not leaders of the churches. There are no scriptures to support your "Assumptions".
ELLA: And another thing a woman was the first to carrying the word of God the gospel , the Good News of Jesus to the disciples even before they got it. Mary Magdalene and the other women carried spoke God's words to the disciples AFTER his resurrection. So that alone should tells you something about God being in charge.
WALTER: So what? This does nothing to support any conclusions you are making. Church leadership roles are clearly spelled out and women are not permitted to be any of them according to GOD Almighty.
ELLA: And Anna the prophetess assited Simeon in temple on the day Jesus was blessed. There are many women in leadership positions in the Bible under the covering of a man doing God's work.
WALTER: A "prophetess" is NOT a leadership roll my dear Ella. Please show me in scripture where a "prophetess" is listed as a "leadership" roll and the qualifications to go along with it.
Every leadership roll in the Churches are clearly spelled out and those positions MUST be held by MEN and men only. This is what is ordained by God and Christ Jesus.
ELLA: I say, if men who are in the pulpit don't stop being pimps, God is ging to sit them all down, and He is going to allow women to take over, or else the rocks will cry otu!
WALTER: So where has God stated that HE will ever put a woman in a leadership roll of a Church? If one man falters in his position as a Pastor will not GOD raise up another man to take the position as HE requires? What part of... "MUST BE A HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE are you not understanding.
ELLA: SBC should not have disassociated themselves from this couple just because the wive served as co-pastor along side of her husband. This is what I think is displeasing to God more than she being a copastor. This position did not place her in authority over him or the church anymore than she being the pastor's wife put her in authority over the church as his wife.
WALTER: The church did the right thing in the eyes of God. Leadership rolls are GENDER SPECIFIC. This couple was in disobedience to what GOD HIMSELF has ordained.
ELLA: Just my view point..
ella
WALTER: Yes Ella it is your view and it is not supported by any scriptures whatsoever. The word of God completely and utterly refutes "your personal view".
1 Tim 2:1 � This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, {Literally overseer} he desires a good work.
A bishop then MUST BE blameless, the*** HUSBAND*** of one wife, temperate, sober�minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
G1985 episkopos ep-is'-kop-os
From G1909 and G4649 (in the sense of G1983); a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer.
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4 one who rules ***HIS*** own house well, having ***HIS***children in submission with all reverence
5 (for if a ***MAN*** does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride ** HE** fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
Moreover***HE*** must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest ***HE*** fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Again we see that the position of a Bishop which is the same as a Pastor, MUST be a Husband, which is gender specific, which is a MAN. Women are precluded from this position. Period.
1 Cor 14: 37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
38 But if anyone ignores this, he should be ignored. (ISV)
Paul is making it clear that the things he wrote were direct COMMANDMENTS FROM THE LORD. This includes what he said about who may and may not be in specified leadership positions within the churches.
Sorry I forgot to be more accurate to your question about the definition of what a Pastor is.
Pastor: 4166 poimen poy-mane� of uncertain affinity; TDNT-6:485,901; n m
AV-shepherd 15, Shepherd 2, pastor 1; 18
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaph.
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the OVERSEER of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes
Bishops and Elders are the same. They are all Elders.
1 Tim 2:1 � This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, {Literally overseer} he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober�minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
Bishop G1985 episkopos ep-is'-kop-os
From G1909 and G4649 (in the sense of G1983); a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer.
Notice both are "overseer". Both are required to be MEN.
