Can't agree that women had no access to education. In those times most and that includes man too, were uneducated. That's why we have so many teachings today. They all try to see it their way. If you just scratch the surface you would find there was only a small number of educated people in those times. And regardless if we are all capable of preaching or not that is only yr personal opinion. Some say women should preach and some not. BTW where does it say that they still need women leaders? I haven't seen that. And it's not like there's not enough of men to preach. You shouldn't be going into arguing since it won't get you or anyone else anywhere. If you are convinced in yr belief, fine. But let others believe in what they want to. After all that's why we all have the Bible to see if something is true or not. You interpreted it one way. Someone else will do it the other way. As for Adam and whether he heard what the serpent said to Eve I assume you speak as one who's been there. Or maybe not? Where does it say that Adam heard Eva speaking to serpent? Find me that in the Bible. You can only guess it but you can not say for certain it is the truth.
"men can decide on their own right to completely ignore God�s instructions if it suits them."
No we all can decide on whether we follow God or not. He gave us the choice. But don't forget you are there with men too. You put it very nicely, if it suits them. Don't know about that but if you follow God, a man or a woman, you have no right to completely ignore God's instructions. You either follow him or not. And I'd like you to show me where it is written that men can decide on their own right to completely ignore God�s instructions if it suits them.
wow... I can see what I said has really upset you, and I'm sorry. I am realizing my opinions don't match those of many people on this site. I do apologize, and offer the below explanation:
I personally have no desire to preach in a church. But I have seen some rather nasty things happen when men who are not gifted as leaders are made leaders/teachers/preachers within a church, simply because they were the only men who attended that church. At that time I truly did agree with you - but having witnessed the ensuing disaster, I guess I have had to reassess my beliefs to make them contiguous with... well, the way things worked out.
Not all men are gifted to be leaders, or teachers, or preachers. And I'm not sure it's fair to try to turn a person or persons into someone they are not. God makes all people according to His own design, and He didn't make us all to be heads or hands. But, by the same token, some women HAVE been gifted in this area (again, NOT myself). If a woman has these talents in a church where none of the men do, and we insist upon making the men lead... well, I guess I believe it's similar to (eg) me insisting God miraculously heal me from pneumonia, when He has kindly provided me with hospitals and doctors and the cash to pay for antibiotics.
I guess I just honestly believe that the parable about the talents applies to both sexes: if you do not use the talents you have been given, you will be accountable before God for it. And what excuse does someone (male or female) have, if they do not use the gifts of preaching or leadership they have been given?
Anna you raise some interesting points. I have been told that at one stage not long after the communists came to power in China most of the visible leadership of the church - ie the male pastors - were imprisoned. The gap in leadership had to be filled and with the male leaders gone is was largely filled with women (often pastors wives). This is an extreme case but in this situation it seems like it was a practical and sensible development which I find it hard imagine that Jesus who came to set us free would have been offended by! Given the shortage of leadership in many denominations today I am not sure that the example may not have some relevance for us.
After spending much time reading different perspective on this issue (I'm a nerd when it comes to theology) I think it's clear that it is difficult to make a clear case from our bibles. That said probably the best case to be made from *our* bibles would be that women indeed should not have a more limited role and certainly that would be the way to play it safe.
Most of the common arguments for equality of women in the church are I believe flawed. ie arguing for it being a localized cultural issues is very difficult when the issue is looked at in great detail. The argument that the meaning of headship in 1 corinthians 11 is also very flawed. and so it goes on. For a few years this is where my understanding stopped however...
However interestingly the inclusion of the verses in 1 corinthians 14 is disputed by some reputable scholars! (see misquoting Jesus) The verses seem to interrupt the flow of the passage and appear in different places in some of the oldest and best manuscripts that we have meaning that some think it was originally a margin note that became part of the text. At very least that the context of this verse is in question. Moreover the verse here saying that women should be silent is not consistent with Paul 3 chapters earlier when he gives instruction on how women are to prophesies and pray in public. If however this verse wasn't included in the bible then it may be that other verses would be interpreted differently and the picture would be far less clear. For instance the verse in chap 11 talks about women needing a head covering - it seems like everyone is happy for this to be a cultural thing (ok some practice this today but not many).
If not for the verse in chap 14 I think it would be much harder to come to a very definite conclusion. Their would still be the verse in 1 tim 2 - however this is a difficult section - it immediately goes on to say that women will be saved by bearing children - something that doesn't make it into anyones theology! Add a few things such as the fact that Junias in romans 16:7 is called "outstanding among the apostles" and the issue certainly gets confusing!
I think that it's good that as Anna mentioned this is not a core issue of our faith! I guess we have to try to work out the best answer we can but it probably becomes us have some humility admitting that its hard to be 100% sure who is right and work to minimise division over the issue!
Anyway for everyone who was bored by this reply my apologies - don't worry I probably won't be back for a long time if ever! I am kinda excited as the part about original texts for 1 cor 14 is new to me! :)
