In dealing with the issue of a Christian being able to "Forfeit" their salvation is made abundantly clear throughout the New Testament. So let's also deal with a particular passage which I believe demonstrates this concept as well.
The Seven letters of Revelation were written to Seven literal Christian Churches, not "church ages". Jesus had good things to say about these churches and bad things to say as well. Each one irregardless of their praise or rebuke were given a warning. Each one was told of the need to "Overcome" if they expected to inherit various things including eternal life. These letters were written to Christians, real Christians, Born Again Believers.
Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
What happens if one does not "Overcome"? They don't get to eat from the "Tree of Life".
Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They will be hurt by the Second Death.
Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it .
What happens to those who do not overcome? They don't get to eat of the "Hidden Manna".
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not receive power over the Nations.
****Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.****
What happens to those who do not overcome? Their names are blotted out from the Book of Life! They Forfeited their salvation!
Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not become a new pillar, they do not get God's name written on them nor Jesus' new name?
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
What happens to those who do not overcome? They do not get to sit down with Jesus on His Throne!
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. NKJV
Here we see Jesus making a very clear statement that it is entirely possible to remove someone from the Book of Life. To be in the Book of Life one must first be a true believer and that is obvious or else they would not be in the Book of Life to begin with. So if Jesus is warning CHRISTIANS of this very real possibility then the idea of a Christian "Forfeiting" their salvation, committing Apostasy is no doubt very real.
The False Teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Calvinism" flies in the face of these Scriptures, among others.
I used just the English because the Greek grammar relates the exact same thing. Third person is third person in both languages. You cannot include yourself in a third person grammatical situation. That would be a gross violation of Grammatical Hereneutics. If you are trying to use this verse to support your belief, it really doesn't help you because it does not say what you think it does. The verse simply is giving us assurance that no EXTERNAL force can take us away from Christ. It does not preclude a person from their free will choice to walk away.
John 15: 6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
You said you don't understand how a Christian can walk away from Christ but yet i have provided you with scriptures thay show how. In fact Hebrews goes directly to this issue.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... IN DEPARTING FROM the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, *** IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
The deceptiveness of sin causes a heart to harden and over time the heart can become so hardened that a person will stop believing in the Gospel message and deny Christ. That is what Apostasy is. The fact that the definition of Apostasy exists at all proves that a Christian can commit that sinful act and forfeit their salvation.
You mentioned deception. Yes a Christian who is deceived into believing certain doctrines can also forfeit their salvation. Believing in a works plus Faith salvation would cause this. Believing that Jesus did not bodily resurrect like Preterism teaches can also cause this. Taking the "MARK" will certainly cause this as well. However I do not see any biblical evidence of the scenario you laid out concerning the AntiChrist. Perhaps some people may be deceived into worshiping him but the Mark of the beast is also tied into not being able to "buy or sell" anything as well as worshiping the beast. I believe the OSAS belief and Pre-Trib Rapture will be two false doctrines that will contribute to people losing their Faith and eventually rejecting Jesus Christ.
How many times have we had this debate in the last year or two? I know you will not move, and you know I will not, so I will leave it to the younger brothers. I just couldn;t resist throwing out a couple of things. I will have a look at the grammer you were speaking of, but I think the fact that the Greek includes everything will prevail.
if you take another lookand use the greek work instead of the English anyone. Then you lose your third person angle completely, as the Greek word is nuetral and could mean any or all of the above.
But...but...what about Ezekiel 33? Romans 11? And I still have to contest the "no man can take you from God's hand" thing, because if you SIN against GOD....GOD will cut your branch off....GOD will drop you from His hand. God judges you, not man...that's all that means. I'm sorry...but to say you're always safe is pretty...to sound like a broken record...presumptuous. What if I went out and did something I knew was completely wrong? Like....kill my brother? And I know the typical answer here too..."Well, then you weren't really saved". Aaaand *poof*....there goes your "assurance of salvation", and it turns it right back in to what I believe. If a righteous man commits iniquity, his righteousness will not be remembered and he will die in his sin. If a wicked man turns from his wickedness, he will live...and his iniquity will not be remembered. Yes, God knows who will be saved...but there is a big difference between "knowing", and "forcing"....in my opinion....
I believe the 7 churches are represented in the "7 golden candlesticks"....either seven "churches" that have God's truth, or seven stages of the true "church" of God. They have "light and oil"...or truth and spirit.
I understand now what you are getting at. And if we spoke and read and wrote Hebrew and Greek, I would agree with you, but so much is lost through the English translation that we can be way off without realizing it.
That is one of the reasons the Bible tells us to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of God. Now I may be wrong, but that sounds like interpreting to me.
In the Temple, everything was very formal, but in the Tabernacles, someone would read a scripture and they would sit around talking and discussing it. Do you remember when Jesus read the Isaiah prophesy and told them that today they had seen it come true in Him? This was typical of Sabbath worship for them.
Mark, if God Himself came down right now and told you that you couldn't lose your salvation, would you run straight out and kill someone? Or would you be so appreciative that nothing could make you do something to displease the Father? Being free is not a license to sin. It is an obligation to our merciful Father in Heaven. We owe Him everything, including our very lives. Anyone who is truly saved will know that, and believe me, it is not something you forget.
I see what you are seeing now. Here's the problem. When you look at a Strong's word in the Concordance you are seeing a miriad of what appears to be alternative word usage. The problem is that the other words are dependent upon the word structure of the surrounding words. Strong's doesn't teach that.
The translators were correct in this passage. I am on my Blackberry at work so I cannot address this as well. I did confer with my Pastor who teaches Greek and he did confirm what I have been saying. Let me try to show you how taking the word "anyone" to include yourself will not work and how it would not be proper grammar. Let me demonstrate this by changing the word "anyone" which is 3rd person to 1st person singular as you think it could mean.
John 10:28-29
My sheep here My voice and I know THEM and THEY follow Me. And I give them eternal life,and THEY shall never perish; neither shall ( I; myself ) snatch THEM out of My hand.
Do you see how when you change the grammar to FIRST person it makes no sense?
29 My Father, who has given THEM to Me, is greater than all; and (I; myself) is not able to snatch THEM out of My Father's hand.
Again I changed the grammar to reflect FIRST person and it does not work.
I think when we carefully study the grammar here we see that we cannot include ourselves within the context in the manner you suggest.
