The Mosaic Law/Covenant was a specific Covenant given exclusively to Israel and was never binding upon mankind as a whole. This has been a source of confusion among Christians. Let's look at to whom the Mosaic Covenant was given to.
Exod 31:16-18
16 Wherefore ***the children of Israel*** shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign ***between me and the children of Israel*** for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.(KJV)
Deut 5:1-3
1 And Moses called ***all Israel, and said unto them***, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant ***with us*** in Horeb.
3 The LORD ***made not*** this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
(KJV) [Moses them recounted the 10 Commandments in the following verses].
We see clearly from these statements that the Old Covenant, and particularly the 10 Commandments, were NOT universal laws binding on all mankind since creation, but were specific to Israel, from the days of Moses onward. There is no escaping this conclusion if you one understands Grammar and Context.
So are the Ten Commandments part of the Mosaic Covenant?
Exod 34:28
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables........
***the words of the covenant,*** the ten commandments.
(KJV)
Deut 4:13
13 And he declared unto you ***his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments;*** and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
(KJV)
So we see from the above scriptures that the Ten Commandments are in fact "The Covenant" or let's say the centerpiece of the Mosaic Covenant.
Now when Jesus came He came to give us a New Covenant via His sacrifice for us. It is through His sacrifice in which we are able to be grafted into the Jewish New Covenant and inherit the blessings of entering the Kingdom of God.
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of ***the new covenant,*** which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV
Now below is the Prophesy of that NEW Covenant that God promised Israel.
Jer 31:31-32
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (KJV)
It must be emphasized that this NEW Covenant is NOT a Gentile Covenant but a Jewish Covenant given to Israel First and then we who are Gentiles can be "grafted into" this Jewish Covenant. Jesus gave the New Covenant to His Apostles who are the 12 representatives of the 12 tribes of Israel in whom the Promise of this NEW Covenant was promised by God.
So now that we have a New and better Covenant, what happened to the Old one? It was completely done away with and replaced.
Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a ***better covenant, which was established on better promises.***
7 For if that FIRST covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH�
9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Now look what Paul says next about the New and Old Covenants.
13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first OBSOLETE. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to VANISH AWAY.
Paul said that the first Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant, has been made "obsolete" and that it was ready to "vanish away". Why is that? Because The New Covenant that was promised by God has now come into being. God fulfilled His promise to Israel that He made in Jeremiah 31:31. He was going to make a New Covenant and it was NOT going to based upon the Old Mosaic Covenant. It was going to be something entirely new.
Heb 10:8-10
8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law";
9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." ****
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.***
Did you catch that? God took away the FIRST Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant so THAT He may establish the SECOND Covenant, the New Covenant that Christ brought in.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (KJV)
In verse 9 above we have clear language that demonstrates that God took away the Mosaic Covenant so that He may establish the Second Covenant.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having ***ABOLISHED*** in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Above in Ephesians 2:14 we see that Jesus Christ "abolished" the Law of commandments contained in ordinances. What are those? Those are all the Laws contained in the Mosaic Covenant. All 613 of them which includes the original Ten Commandments. Does this mean that we can now murder and commit adultery? Of course not. Jesus implemented God's "Moral Principles" in the New Covenant which is also known as "The Law of Christ". It is important to distinguish between God's "Moral Principles" and the laws themselves. In part two I will address the New Covenant, The Law of Christ. Before I do I would like for you to examine the situation that the Early Church was having regarding the Gentiles and how the leaders of the Church came to the theological conclusion that the Gentile Christians were never under "the Mosaic Law" and were never bound to any of it's requirements.
(Acts 15:23-24) �The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings,
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, �You must be circumcised and keep the law� � to whom we gave no such commandment � it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.� .
Act 21:18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.
24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
First let's look at the full scripture you keep using. It is in Matt.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Notice Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets. What could this mean? It means that He ended the law for believers for all time.
Finding where Luke is only quoting part of the originaal scripture is not proving a point, on the contrary, it makes people suspicious of everything you write.
I am sorry Daniel, but this is a fruitless argument. I will pray for you, my brother, but I will not sit here and argue after I have already shown you so many scriptures. It is time for me to move on to help someone who wants it.
First of all, you mix up the time line in both Matthew and Luke.
Matthew 5 happens when Jesus is preaching the beatitudes.
This happen in Luke 6. I am quoting from Luke 15. Jesus spoke the verse i quote and the verses you quoted on 2 different occassions. So there is no misquoting as claimed by you.
I also pointed out many other verses in NT which said that law has not passed away either in this post or the tithes post. Some of them I have been repeating them.
Such as
1. Lawlessness is sin in 1 John
2. New covenant included the law in Hebrews
3. Faith without deed is dead in James
4. All the law shall be obey in James
5. Even the Gentiles fulfilled the requirement of the law in Romans
6. Having faith means upholding the law in Romans.
7. To have eternal life means keeping the commandments in the dialogue of Jesus with a rich young man.
I also explained what do you mean by not saved by observing the law.
I don't ask for much, just demonstrate ... let say how lawlessness is not a sin, then i can accept the law has passed away.
Many people have been misinterpreting what Jesus meant in Matthew concerning "fulfilling" what some interpret as "the Law". This has been a source of great confusion among many. Let's clear it up.
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
First it is important to notice that Jesus did not say just "the Law". He also mentioned "the Prophets". Why do you think that is? Do you think He was talking exclusively about the Mosaic Law or was there something else intended? If Jesus was coming just to "fulfill The LAW" then no mention of the Prophets would have been necessary.
When we deal with "Prophets" we normally are dealing with "Prophesies". What prophesies?"
Jesus was talking about coming to fulfill all the Prophesies that are contained in the Mosaic Law and the Prophets concerning His First Coming. Is there any other passage of scripture in the New Testament that could help us confirm this? Yes.
After the Resurrection Jesus met up with two Disciples on the road to Emmaus and had an interesting conversation with them. In fact Jesus taught them many things. What things?
Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. NKJV
Luk 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
So we that Jesus explained to them about all the Prophesies concerning Himself from Moses onward including all the Prophets.
Now let's continue with the rest of this passage and look at other misinterpretations.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
It is very important to get the Grammar correctly here. Notice above that Jesus is NOT saying that the law will not pass away until heaven and earth passes away. He is saying that it will not pass away UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED. Did Jesus fulfill all the Prophesies concerning His First Coming? Of course He did. Then since He fulfilled these prophesies then the Law can in fact pass away and did. That is what Jesus is talking about and if it is not then we have a huge contradiction with other NEW Testament passages that clearly shows the Mosaic Law....ALL of it, including the Ten Commandments, was completely replaced, done away with, made obsolete. Before I address the scriptures dealing with the Mosaic Law, let me finish this passage.
Now in verse 19 we have another statement that has many confused. Grammar again is so important.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NKJV
The key here is to understand what Jesus is saying when He says "these commandments". There are two possibilities in the Greek grammar regarding "these commandments".
First off Jesus didn't mention any Commandments yet. We cannot make any arbitrary statement and say He was talking about Moses as He simply did not say which ones. We could include the commandments to Noah as well if we go down that path.
The word "these" is a demonstrative pronoun and can either be an "Antecedent" or "Postcedent".
Jesus is either referring to the Antecedent...previous verses of Mat 5:3 -16 or Postcedent....the following verses after His statement which would be the rest of the entire Sermon on The Mount. Considering the extensiveness of the rest of the Sermon on the Mount compared to just a few verses previously taught, it would be a more weighty conclusion that Jesus was referring to the rest of His sermon. [postcedent.]
Additionally we have a statement from Jesus at the end of this discourse that solidifies my position.
Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
What sayings? All the teachings He just gave us in Matthew chapters 5,6 & 7.
Now let's deal with a particular Prophesy that Jesus fulfilled and this one is one of the most important I believe. I am going to use the Hebrews quote of Paul because he quotes Jeremiah 31:31 and applies it to US as a fulfilled prophecy given to Israel and in which we have access to it through Christ.
Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH�
9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Paul clearly said that God has made (past tense) the OLD Covenant OBSOLETE and was ready to vanish away. Paul is speaking about the Mosaic Law...ALL of it, not just part of it. That is all 613 Commandments including the original Ten. Notice that the Prophesy says clearly that the NEW Covenant was NOT going to be based upon anything of the OLD Covenant but be something entirely different. If this is not true then this is one reason why the statement of Jesus in Matthew 5 would be a direct contradiction to Hebrews 8 above as well as others.
The question we must ask is this. Are the Ten Commandments separate from the Mosaic Law or are they it's centerpiece?
Exod 34:28
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
(KJV)
Deut 4:13
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
(KJV)
There is no question and it is irrefutable that the Ten Commandments are the Mosaic Covenant. Since that is clearly the fact of scriptures and the scriptures state with absolute certainty that they were replaced, done away with, made obsolete, then there is no reason for them to continue. Now don't make the mistake many on this board have made and assume that God's Moral PRINCIPLES have been done away with as Christ re-intituted God's Moral Principles in the NEW Covenant beginning at the Sermon on the Mount.
Heb 10:8-10
8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law";
9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (KJV)
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Jesus fulfilled the "prophesies" concerning His First Coming and was not talking about the Mosaic law in and of itself in Matt 5:17. If He was then we have a clear contradiction in scriptures listed above as they demonstrate that the Mosaic Law was indeed completely replaced or else God lied to us in Jeremiah 31:31. The only way to reconcile this is to have the proper interpretation of all these passages by maintaining the principles of Hermeneutics, which I believe I have done.
I don't think you are interested in any discussion. I always point out how your argument or reasoning resulting in making God's word contradictory. You on the other hand never tried to prove my reasoning wrong. All you did is to quote more verses to support your argument without considering the verses I quoted and how your arguments are in agreement of the verses I quote.
Stop avoiding my questions to you in post 2.
Again I will show you how your reasoning is in contradictory with God's word.
You: People misunderstood Matthew5:17 (first of all, I never used this verse in this forum title)
Me: You misunderstood Matthew 5:17. the verse is actually written in 2 sentences. In the first: Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. Meaning: the law is not destroyed. In the second: I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Meaning: Christ fulfilled the prophecies in the Law. This sentence is neutral regarding the eternalness of the law. The first sentence is clear, He did not come to destroy the law. If he did not, the law persist and this is in agreement with "All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal."Psalm 119:160
Question to you: How can Jesus destroyed the law when Psalm say it is eternal? What is sin?
You: People misinterpret verse 18.
Me: when does all is fulfilled happen? Read more bible!
You: People misinterpret verse 19.The word "these" is a demonstrative pronoun and can either be an "Antecedent" or "Postcedent".
Me: You are adding words to God's word. Jesus say commandments, i.e. commandments of God, all of them. Why? His word is true and everlasting!
You: Hebrew 8 prove that law is done away.
Me: On the contrary, Hebrew 8 did not say law had been done away because God put it in our heart as in verse 10. Hebrew 8 only said that old covenant had pass away not law. This again prove my point that covenant is not equal to law.
You have done nothing, because you do not believe God's word is true and eternal. Stop avoiding my questions.
dear daniel... i need to ask you to please stop bein so abrassive in your replies to others here..
heres a few examples of your choice of words just from your last post...
Stop avoiding my questions to you in post 2.
Me: when does all is fulfilled happen? Read more bible!
You have done nothing, because you do not believe God's word is true and eternal. Stop avoiding my questions.
my words here
we can make our beliefs known in our discussions without getting personal and flamin others.. and bein smart towards them.. its really not nesecery,,
maybe why are you avoiding my questions to you in post 2 ..
would of been a little better that telling someone or demanding how theyve got to reply to you... ya recon..
read more bible ,well now thats just taken a digg at someone you can tell has read their bible.. now you may or may not agree with what they got out of it..
Others have been answering your questions and you still do not agree with them. Are you "willing" to accept that your understanding of this topic may be skewed?
I have presented the scriptures with sound exegesis maintaining consistent Hermeneutics. I have pointed out the clear interpretation of passages and yet you refuse to accept them because they do not conform to your personal interpretations/understanding. With all due respect Daniel, you are arguing against basic grammatical rules of interpretation. When you violate grammatical rules you end up with wrong interpretations. Case in point below.
Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of THESE commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NKJV
The key here is to understand what Jesus is saying when He says "THESE commandments". There are only two possibilities in the Greek grammar regarding "these commandments".
First off Jesus didn't mention any Commandments yet. We cannot make any arbitrary statement and say He was talking about Moses as He simply did not say which ones. We could include the commandments to Noah as well if we go down that path.
The word "these" is a demonstrative pronoun and can either be an "Antecedent" or "Postcedent".
Daniel, do you understand what a "Demonstrative Pronoun" is?
Do you understand what an "Antecedent and a Postcedent is? If you have to look it up then you don't really know. I don't ask this to embarrass you but to get you to realize something. That is.... if you do not understand basic grammatical rules then you will not get the interpretation correct. Let's continue.
Jesus is either referring to the Antecedent...previous verses of Mat 5:3 -16 or Postcedent....the following verses after His statement which would be the rest of the entire Sermon on The Mount. Considering the extensiveness of the rest of the Sermon on the Mount compared to just a few verses previously taught, it would be a more weighty conclusion that Jesus was referring to the rest of His sermon. [postcedent.]
Additionally we have a statement from Jesus at the end of this discourse that solidifies my position.
Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears THESE sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
What sayings? "THESE" here is an Antecedent, meaning all the previous teachings (COMMANDMENTS) He just gave us in Matthew chapters 5,6 & 7.
Let's review something else I have not seen you respond to in my first post. If you did please show me.
First question though I will ask is this. Are you a Jew or a Gentile?
Exod 31:16-18
16 Wherefore ***the children of Israel*** shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
To WHOM was this Covenant given to and WHO was required to keep it?
Answer: ISRAEL; The Jews. Are you a Jew or a Gentile?
Do you see anywhere in this scripture where God commanded Gentiles to keep this Covenant/Law?
17 It is a sign ***between me and the children of Israel*** for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Who was it a sign between?
GOD and ISRAEL. Do you see anywhere the word"Gentiles" or "Nations" or "the World" inserted anywhere?
18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.(KJV)
Deut 5:1-3
1 And Moses called ***all Israel, and said unto them***, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2 The LORD our God made a covenant ***with us*** in Horeb.
3 The LORD ***made not*** this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
(KJV) [Moses them recounted the 10 Commandments in the following verses].
So to WHOM was this Covenant given to and WHO was required to keep it? The Nation of ISRAEL or The whole world?
