Ok! Here's something I'd like to talk about some more...for a couple reasons. First reason! It's what I believe. Second reason! I would like it tested by the bible warriors on here. This is the bible battleground after all, why not put my beliefs to the test? I could be wrong, and if I am I'd really like to know.
Here's the scriptures I believe support my belief that when people die, they are in an unconscious state until the second coming of Christ. I honestly don't know absolutely, but it seems like the weight of scripture at least supports an unconscious state after death until the second return of Christ. There are some in heaven, like Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are the only ones I know of for sure. There were many resurrected at the resurrection of Jesus. But I believe as a whole...most of God's followers and all the wicked are resting in the grave until the judgment. So if its ok, I'd like to see the scriptures that contradict my views and support your views...because honestly, I could just be searching the bible for what I want to see.
*1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
* Genesis 2:7. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Body (form) + Breath of life/God (n�phach /puff) = a living being, or Soul (Hebrew נפש nephesh[8])
* Genesis 3:19. "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou returnest unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken; for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
* Genesis 18:27-28. "27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes: "
* 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom."
* Job 3:17. "There [the grave] the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest."
* 1 Kings 2:10. "10So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 11:21. "21And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers,"
* 1 Kings 11:43. "43And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 14:20. "20And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers"
* 1 Kings 14:31. "31And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David."
* 1 Kings 15:8. "8And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David:"
* 1 Kings 15:24. "24And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 1 Kings 16:6. "6So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah:"
* 1 Kings 16:28. "28So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria:"
* 1 Kings 22:40. "40So Ahab slept with his fathers;"
* 1 Kings 22:50. "50And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father:"
* 2 Kings 8:24. "24And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 10:35. "35And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria."
* 2 Kings 13:9. "9And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria:"
* 2 Kings 14:22. "22He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers."
* 2 Kings 14:29. "29And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel;"
* 2 Kings 15:7. "7So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David:"
* 2 Kings 15:22. "22And Menahem slept with his fathers;"
* Job 4:17. "17Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?"
* Job 7:21 "And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away my iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be."
* Job 7:10. "10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more."
* Job 14:10-12. "10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
* Job 19:25-28. "25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
* Job 34:14-16. "14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."
* Psalms 6:5. "For in death there is no remembrance of thee:in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"
* Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;"
* Psalm 90:5 "You sweep men away in the sleep of death; they are like the new grass of the morning-"
* Psalms 146:3-4. "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whome there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."
* Ecclesiastes 3:19-20. "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again."
* Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10. "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing [....] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished [...] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
* Isaiah 14:18 "All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, everyone in his own house."
* Isaiah 26:19. "19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."
* Ezekiel 18:20."The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
* Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
* Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
* Matthew 9:24-27. "24He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. 25But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. "
* Matthew 16:27. "27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
* Matthew 27:51-55. "51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, "
* Luke 8:52, 53 "Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. 'Stop wailing,' Jesus said. 'She is not dead but asleep.' They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead."
* John 3:5, 6 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
* John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."
* John 5:28-30. "28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
* John 6:39. "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
* John 6:40. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:44. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:54. "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 12:48. "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
* John 11:11-14. "These things said he [Jesus]: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."
* John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."
* John 20:17. "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
* Acts 2:29. "29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
* Acts 2:34 "For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand".
* Acts 7:59-62. "59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
* Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption."
* 1 Corinthians 15:16-50 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished [....] If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die. [�] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: [....] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
* 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52 "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed�in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."
* 2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4 "For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake [....] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you [....] For which cause we faint not [...] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."
* James 2:26. "26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
* Ephesians 5:14 "...for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: 'Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.'"
* 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".
* Hebrews 9:27. "27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
* 1 Timothy 6:16 "who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen."
* 2 Timothy 4:7-8. " 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
* 2 Peter 3:4 "[...]for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
Remember that I told you I would have to get back with you on this later. I was not able to respond with any exegesis of anything as while I am at work I only have my Blackberry, not my PC. So please don't go saying I did a poor job. There is no need for that is there?
My time is limited over the next couple of days. Meanwhile ponder this while I finally get to answer more completely.
What happened when Jesus died and rose again?
What happened to all the "Believers" who died before Christ rose from the dead?
Where were all those Saints?
What did Jesus do concerning all those who died previously?
When you look at all the OLD Testament scriptures and you are coming to certain conclusions are you sure you are making the right conclusions?
When Jesus returns for the Resurrection and Rapture, Post-Trib, who are all these Saints He brings with Him?
1Thess 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Who are these people? They were obviously in Heaven for God to bring WITH Him. These people have not been resurrected as yet. These are the spirits that will be reunited with their bodies which of course will be immortal then.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Eternal life can be so confusing some times. First of all you have to remember that life and death as perceived by the Jews was not always about the state of living, breathing, etc and being dead. Further, their perception of living sometimes meant that they had been a good man and they were not going to suffer eternal death or damnation. They were the living even if their bodies were in the grave but they had been righteous men.
I believe there is also a difference between what happens to the souls of the OT saints and the NT saints when they die. I am getting this information form a recent book, "The Kingdom, Power and Glory" as well as the Bible. http://www.kingshighway.org/kingdom/
OT Saints do not experience Salvation as we know it as New Testament Saints so the same rules do not apply. My suggestion is that you do more research into Jewish beliefs so that your perspective on how you interpret the OT is given deeper credence. I also strongly suggest you read this book because it addresses several of the things you are talking about as well as will bring greater enlightenment to you regarding our reward as the inheritance of the Kingdom of Heaven (not going to Heaven but the Millennial Kingdom) and so much more. It has changed my spiritual walk and my life and brought a wealth of wisdom to me.
Walter, I'm pretty sure that all the verse is saying is that people who die in Christ have hope of resurrection. If you're going to use that as an example, let me use Christs death, burial, and resurrection. After Jesus rose from the dead, He warned Mary not to touch Him because He had "not ascended to His father". Paul was just saying that, just like Jesus, we all have the hope of resurrection when Christ comes again to take us where He is. God will not leave the dead in Christ in the grave, He will bring them with Him to heaven after He comes again. So...Jesus was dead right? Absent from the body? But not ascended to heaven? Sorry for implying you didn't do a good job, didn't know you were on your blackberry, but I still would like to point out how easy it is to reconcile my bible beliefs with your verses. This belief of yours just doesn't make sense to me....maybe I've been brainwashed, but it's also strange that around the time of the pagan roman conversion into the early church...pagan philosophers were claiming immortality for the soul...and that there are so many verses that contradict your belief....in my opinion.
That one is talking about the resurrection right? Otherwise Jesus contradicts Himself. "You die, but you'll never die". I'm pretty sure He's saying "even though you die, you will be resurrected(live), and if you're resurrected(have been given new life), you will live forever(in heaven)". Kinda has a time-line in it. I don't think(of course I don't:laugh:) the part that says he will never die is talking about an immortal soul, it's talking about immortality in heaven. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die", "fear the One that can destroy both body and soul in hellfire", "Who alone has immortality"(I'm in a hurry and don't remember the verses...sorry...I know they exist though:winksmile:, and a couple of them were already posted in here). Anyway...I feel like I'm making excuses for my beliefs. I would sorta like to hear explanations for the verses I gave in order to understand the way you look at them. Of course I'm going to explain away your verses...but what do you think about the ones I'm building on? You have to remember, I'm probably looking at the verses you give the same way you look at mine. Your verses look like a "easily explained away" stretch to me, and I would like to here your "exegesis" on the verses that are holding up my belief if you don't mind.:eat:
2 Timothy 4:7-8. " 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
I mean.....I have always believed this way, and when I was old enough to notice...I could see all these people I care about falling away from God because of the way you believe....and don't get me wrong...you can believe what you want, and the result of your beliefs isn't what made me believe the way I do(always believed this way)...it's just...sad to me...to see people I care about hating God because they think He's throwing people into hell for ages upon endless ages....when that is so far from what I believe. I believe God is a just God that will deliver punishment according to peoples works at the judgment day. Satan will burn a long time. Hitler? Slightly less. Murderers? Slightly less. Thieves? Slightly less. My Aunt? Not long at all. So according to your beliefs....my grandma died before Saddam Hessian...but she's been in hell for 10 years longer? That is "just, fair, and righteous"? A God that can endure His creation suffering for all eternity is not the God I find in the bible...sorry...and that seems to be the other side of your "go right to heaven" belief. I just wish you'd take a closer look at how you're representing a "God of love".
