Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 28 Jan, 2010 10:34 AM
Hi Everyone,
There is a theology today that teaches that we are saved BY faith ALONE. Did you know that there is no such scriptures that supports this theology. Salvation is "BY Grace" through Faith. But the scriptures do not say faith ALONE. Why is that? Because we are not saved "BY" faith, we are saved BY Grace. No one scripture was ever intended to be a theological treatise on the whole issue of Salvation. Let me say very clearly that we are saved BY God's grace and works play no part. Jesus' work on the cross is complete. Man cannot save himself. But does this mean that man has no responsibility to respond to the Gospel message? After hearing the Gospel message man has a choice to either accept Christ Jesus or not. But when he places his Faith in Christ does God have any requirements for man that he must do in order to "RECEIVE" that precious gift? Does God force salvation upon us or do we have to "accept" this gift? And when we do accept this gift, how do we actually receive this gift? What process does Christ lay out for us in order to receive Salvation. You see for the "Faith ALONE" theology to be biblically sound there cannot be any scriptures whatsoever that shows that man does any physical act that LEADS towards his salvation. If there is just one verse that demonstrates this then the entire Faith ALONE theology falls apart and cannot stand.
One of the BIG misconceptions about "works" is that anything we do physically is a "work". But that thinking comes from the ancient Gnostic teachings that have permeated Christianity thanks to St. Augustine (a pseudo Gnostic) and John Calvin who was greatly influenced by St. Augustine.
Gnosticism teaches that everything physical is evil and only that which is spiritual is good. Paul, John and some of the Early Church Fathers like Irenaeus defended the Faith against the Gnostics. So let's see if there are any scriptures that demonstrate that something we do physically Leads towards our salvation.
Rom 10:9 THAT IF YOU CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, AND WITH THE MOUTH confession is made UNTO salvation. NKJV
So we see that the physical act of confessing WITH OUR MOUTH leads to Salvation. There is no escaping this as the grammar is abundantly clear. The entire "Faith ALONE" theology falls apart and is shown to not be biblically correct. This made me just think of something Jesus said.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. NKJV
Did Jesus say that He barges in or does He say that we are the ones who have to OPEN the door to let Him in? You see Jesus paid the price for us and He is the gift of Eternal Life. He is knocking at the door, we just have to be willing to let Him in. But how do we give Him entrance per se? Is it a literal door? Of course not. So how do we unite with Christ? Do we just say a little prayer and poof He is there? Or in addition to having Faith in Him does Jesus command us to do something in order to enter into His New Covenant? Repentance is an obvious thing we must do but that is not something physical. Well we obviously know that we must confess with our MOUTH. Is there something else?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
It is important to note the position in which Salvation occurs. It is shown in these passages to be AFTER water Baptism, not before it. To be technical, salvation occurs while you are in the water. Burried in Baptism with Christ, raised to walk in newness of life. The Greek supports this. Look at the next verse.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. NKJV
Again, we see that Salvation occurs AFTER water Baptism, not before it. In fact Jesus made it a requirement in order to obtain Salvation.
When we examine these scriptures we see that it is THROUGH water Baptism that we receive the Holy Spirit. Notice that salvation occurs AFTER Baptism not prior to it. It is not the water that saves us but it is the LOCATION where Christ has chosen to save us. It is there that Paul says:
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
How are we Baptized into Christ and Baptized into His death if not water Baptism? It is through this act in which we unite with Christ.
So we see that these scriptures clearly demonstrate that there are physical acts that we do that LEADS us to Salvation. The "Faith ALONE" theology is proven to be a False teaching.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 28 Jan, 2010 08:02 PM
By your own admission, if there is even one verse that contradicts a theory, it is proven false. In that spirit, what of the thief on the cross? Jesus told him, Surely I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.
What of the men Phillip had baptized, but had not received the Holy Spirit? You can not be saved without the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit, so none of these men were saved, but all had been baptized.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 28 Jan, 2010 10:09 PM
Hi Leon,
First off you are making an application that is not the same. The "Faith ALONE" doctrine requires that nothing we do physically can contribute in any manner towards our salvation. This doctrine did not exist in the Early Church. When we examine the issue of Salvation all scriptures have to harmonize and be consistent with Hermeneutics. When we bring the physical act of confessing with your mouth into the mix, Faith Alone cannot stand. it demonstrates that those who believe that has not properly examined all scriptures pertaining to this issue IMO.
The Thief on the cross is a situation where the person was unable to get down off the cross and get Baptized. Can you just picture this. "Hey you...yeah you, Roman Centurian, let me down off this cross please so I can go and get Baptized." LOL
God can save anyone who chooses. However He has given the requirement where salvation occurs under most normal circumstances.
Furthermore Jesus had not given the commandment to Baptize until just prior to His ascension. Jesus also said with total clarity that in order to be saved Baptism was an essential element. Mark 16:16 settles the entire debate on this.
The point of this thread is that the Faith Alone doctrine is not correct. :angel:
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 28 Jan, 2010 10:18 PM
Hi Leon,
You said: "What of the men Phillip had baptized, but had not received the Holy Spirit? You can not be saved without the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit, so none of these men were saved, but all had been baptized."
WALTER: Actually Leon they did receive the Holy Spirit. We are all promised to receive the Holy Spirit upon our conversion. What you are confusing is that when the Apostles came to assist Philip it was to lay hands upon these people so that they would receive "Spiritual Gifts". Only the Apostles could impart these gifts through the laying on of their hands. That is how the Holy Spirit operated.
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
This takes a little discernment here. When they are talking about receiving the Holy Spirit they are not referring to initial salvation where everyone receives the Holy Spirit. They are talking about receiving gifts that the Holy Spirit would impart to them through the laying on of hands by one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ. If this meant receiving the Holy SPirit as in initial salvation then we are all in BIG trouble because then no one could be saved unless one of the 12 Apostles laid their hands upon us.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 29 Jan, 2010 12:05 AM
The point of this thread is that the Faith Alone doctrine is not correct.
Agreed! That would mean we are saving ourselves. Grace is what saves us through faith. We have to have faith to activate the grace, but that is a small price to pay for eternal life.
As for the baptism thing, I see where you are coming from, but it is hard to swallow. I believe you are right about the apostles imparting a gift to them, I will have to get back to you again on the whole baptism thing. It would not make sense for Jesus to bypass a rule for going to heaven without saying something about it. That just doesn't seem to fit Him. I am studying about 5 other things right now, but will get to this in a month or so.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 29 Jan, 2010 09:04 AM
Just wanted to offer my opinion on something. Salvation, grace, forgiveness...all free, nothing we can do to earn those, but when it comes to the end and our reward has come, it isn't always handed out because someone is forgiven. There's the parables of the unfaithful servants. The one that received great mercy and forgiveness, but it didn't change him and he disgraced the blessing he received by not being merciful to his fellow servant. Lost. The servant that was serving God and had a gift from God, but buried it in the ground instead of sharing and multiplying it like his Lord wanted. Lost. The people at the second coming that say "Lord, lord". Lost. The people that say "But we cast out demons in your name". Lost. The 5 virgins that were waiting for the wedding feast. Lost. All of them were missing something...either faith, hope, or charity. Have to have all three and be sharing them with others...or we're dead/unchanged and we will have no reward. It will be taken from us and given to the faithful, hopeful, and charitable servants. Faith is believing what God says, and when God says "do this/don't do this"..we should believe it's best for us because we should know God truly loves us by the grace, mercy, and forgiveness that He already gave us when we didn't deserve it. Hope is looking forward to things coming, being able to stay joyful even when in adversity because you are "not of the world". Charity is the love we should haave for our fellow humans...sacrificing ourselves for them, like Jesus did for us. Thats basically the new covenant in a nutshell...the inward changing the outward, instead of the old covenant...outward attempting to change the inward. But the point is, a life that is not seeking to change and to do God's will in everything is not a fully converted life. True "works", done for the right reasons, should be an outward expression of a spiritual change. "You will know them by their fruits"
...man...that ended up longer than I planned...:laugh:
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 29 Jan, 2010 11:47 AM
:laugh: Nah, I can actually make it through your posts usually, mine was just supposed to be a couple sentences and I got carried away. I think of someone else when I think of unreadable posts...:goofball::laugh: But he's missing and can't defend himself, so I won't poke him.
Is everything we do physically a Work of the Flesh?
Posted : 30 Jan, 2010 12:02 PM
Well, Walter, we're made of flesh right? And born into sin, and the wages of sin is death. The act of accepting God is made by the flesh, is it not? Because as far as I know, no-one is born saved, they have to make that choice. And if they're not saved, then they don't have the Holy Spirit in them (in any way that they're aware of.) Your actions of the flesh have led you to seek salvation, or come across the path of someone who witnessed to you, and this person was also once unsaved. Also there are people out there who do good things either without the Holy Spirit, or without being aware of its promptings. Case in point-many of the pagans I've come across have openly attacked my faith. As a result, my faith has become stronger!!!! I pray for these people to become saved, but I can attribute a great deal of my own spiritual strength to the attacks of these pagans. Iron sharpens Iron. So I'll bounce a question to you now-the aforementioned pagans. What spirit was inside them that led ME to become stronger. It could go both ways........ Andy
