This is the post I used in Walter's topic on "murder in the heart".
"Hmm... there's a lot of heat on this topic, so I'll try to be brief. I don't feel like Jesus REPLACED the old commandments. I also don't see His teachings as new commandments. I don't think Jesus was trying to give us a new list of rules. In fact, just from reading about Him, I'd say he was against giving us lists of rules to follow! I think that what He was trying to do was to help us all better understand what sin is. To help us understand it a little better. He was trying to help us RECOGNIZE sin... at the core. I think God may have been tired of us following rules just because they were given to us. I think He wanted us to develop a deeper understanding of what sin truly is. I don't believe the people back in Jesus' time had any concept of this. They were just trying to follow the rules to the letter. They didn't understand what sin truly was. Sin was just a word for "you broke a rule". This largely summarizes the way the Pharisees and other teachers of the law acted during that time. They followed the rules as close to the letter as they could, yet were missing the point. As a result of their ignorance of what sin actually was, they were usually oblivious when they were caught up inside of it! In fact, the more I spend time in the "church", or the institutional church anyways, the more I see Christians falling back into this same pattern. "I better follow the rules to the dot so I don't go to hell." This is sad. Literally. It's depressing. What's even sadder, to me, is that no one is standing up against it. We're just all allowing it. We're teaching it our kids. Our own youth. I've been struggling with this for a little while now. I'm not quite sure how to respond or what to do. Maybe none of you feel the same way I do. Maybe you do. If you don't, that's okay. I have to answer for my actions as you have to answer for yours. If you do agree with me, please... share your thoughts. Please. (peacefully, hopefully)"
What I see that you are missing is that Jesus did in fact replace the Old Mosaic Covenant/Laws. The scriptures are very clear on this. The New Covenant was prophesied to replace the Mosaic Covenant/Laws.
Here's a study I did a while back. There is more but this should suffice. Please study this closely as it should clear up some areas that have confused many Christians for many years. Don't be in a hurry to answer quickly. Take your time. There is a lot here to digest.
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
First it is important to notice that Jesus did not say just "the Law". He also mentioned "the Prophets". Why do you think that is? Do you think He was talking exclusively about the Mosaic Law or was there something else intended? If Jesus was coming just to "fulfill The LAW" then no mention of the Prophets would have been necessary.
When we deal with "Prophets" we normally are dealing with "Prophesies". What prophesies?"
Jesus was talking about coming to fulfill all the Prophesies that are contained in the Mosaic Law and the Prophets concerning His First Coming. Is there any other passage of scripture in the New Testament that could help us confirm this? Yes.
After the Resurrection Jesus met up with two Disciples on the road to Emmaus and had an interesting conversation with them. In fact Jesus taught them many things. What things?
Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. NKJV
Luk 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."
45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
So we that Jesus explained to them about all the Prophesies concerning Himself from Moses onward including all the Prophets.
Now let's continue with the rest of this passage and look at other misinterpretations.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
It is very important to get the Grammar correctly here. Notice above that Jesus is NOT saying that the law will not pass away until heaven and earth passes away. He is saying that it will not pass away UNTIL ALL IS FULFILLED. Did Jesus fulfill all the Prophesies concerning His First Coming? Of course He did. Then since He fulfilled these prophesies then the Law can in fact pass away and did. That is what Jesus is talking about and if it is not then we have a huge contradiction with other NEW Testament passages that clearly shows the Mosaic Law....ALL of it, including the Ten Commandments, was completely replaced, done away with, made obsolete. Before I address the scriptures dealing with the Mosaic Law, let me finish this passage.
Now in verse 19 we have another statement that has many confused. Grammar again is so important.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NKJV
The key here is to understand what Jesus is saying when He says "these commandments". There are two possibilities in the Greek grammar regarding "these commandments".
First off Jesus didn't mention any Commandments yet. We cannot make any arbitrary statement and say He was talking about Moses as He simply did not say which ones. We could include the commandments to Noah as well if we go down that path.
The word "these" is a demonstrative pronoun and can either be an "Antecedent" or "Postcedent".
Jesus is either referring to the Antecedent...previous verses of Mat 5:3 -16 or Postcedent....the following verses after His statement which would be the rest of the entire Sermon on The Mount. Considering the extensiveness of the rest of the Sermon on the Mount compared to just a few verses previously taught, it would be a more weighty conclusion that Jesus was referring to the rest of His sermon. [postcedent.]
Additionally we have a statement from Jesus at the end of this discourse that solidifies my position.
Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
What sayings? All the teachings He just gave us in Matthew chapters 5,6 & 7.
Now let's deal with a particular Prophesy that Jesus fulfilled and this one is one of the most important I believe. I am going to use the Hebrews quote of Paul because he quotes Jeremiah 31:31 and applies it to US as a fulfilled prophecy given to Israel and in which we have access to it through Christ.
Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH�
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Paul clearly said that God has made (past tense) the OLD Covenant OBSOLETE and was ready to vanish away. Paul is speaking about the Mosaic Law...ALL of it, not just part of it. That is all 613 Commandments including the original Ten. Notice that the Prophesy says clearly that the NEW Covenant was NOT going to be based upon anything of the OLD Covenant but be something entirely different. If this is not true then this is one reason why the statement of Jesus in Matthew 5 would be a direct contradiction to Hebrews 8 above as well as others.
The question we must ask is this. Are the Ten Commandments separate from the Mosaic Law or are they it's centerpiece?
Exod 34:28
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
(KJV)
Deut 4:13
13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
(KJV)
There is no question and it is irrefutable that the Ten Commandments are the Mosaic Covenant. Since that is clearly the fact of scriptures and the scriptures state with absolute certainty that they were replaced, done away with, made obsolete, then there is no reason for them to continue. Now don't make the mistake many on this board have made and assume that God's Moral PRINCIPLES have been done away with as Christ re-intituted God's Moral Principles in the NEW Covenant beginning at the Sermon on the Mount.
Heb 10:8-10
8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law";
9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (KJV)
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Jesus fulfilled the "prophesies" concerning His First Coming and was not talking about the Mosaic law in and of itself in Matt 5:17. If He was then we have a clear contradiction in scriptures listed above as they demonstrate that the Mosaic Law was indeed completely replaced or else God lied to us in Jeremiah 31:31. The only way to reconcile this is to have the proper interpretation of all these passages by maintaining the principles of Hermeneutics, which I believe I have done.
When Cain was angry that Able's sacriface was accepted he was angry.That was not murder yet,because god asked him about it and said sin was at the door.Cain let that anger fester till it became murder. Somewhere it became the crime before the act.
Walter...I have trouble believing that the 10 commandments were included in the "mosaic law" that was done away with, simply because every principle of the 10 commandments was taught either by Jesus or by His apostles after His death. The 10 commandments ARE the moral principles of the bible, and all ten were still taught and kept after the death of Jesus. If you notice, whenever Paul talks about "not being under the law" he is always referring to circumcision, food, feasts, sacrifices...on the other hand, he is constantly admonishing people to stay away from idols, not to murder, not to steal, not to lie, to honor you parents, not to commit adultery, not to covet, to love God more than anything, to keep God's sabbath, not to take God's name in vain, etc. The pharisees where all about hypocrisy in their interpretation of the law. "Thou shalt not kill", but you're allowed to walk by a dying man in the road. "Thou shalt not steal, or dishonor you parents", but if you donate part of your inheritance to the temple you don't have to take care of them. "Don't take God's name in vain"...they wouldn't even say His name, but you could call yourself a son of God and treat your fellow humans badly at the same time. Jesus came to show them that it's not about keeping the letter of the law and getting around the spirit of it...it's about wanting to do good always, serving God in everything, and showing mercy when you receive none. I think the "letter of the law" we're supposed to stay away from is limiting our behavior to a simple, literal keeping of it...instead of using it to change our lives. Try to be like Jesus....simple version.
I understand! Consider this. Is the Mosaic Law and Mosaic Covenant one and the same? Yes! Are the 10 Commandments the Mosaic Covenant? Yes. There is no distinction between "THE LAW" and THE MOSAIC COVENANT". They are the very same. Look at this scripture again.
Exod 34:28
28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
(KJV)
[the words of the covenant, the ten commandments]
Deut 4:13
13 And he declared unto you HIS COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
(KJV)
[even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.]
The Ten Commandments are the Mosaic Covenant or let's say it's centerpiece.
God gave a prophesy to Israel and told them He was going to make a NEW Covenant with them and that it was not going to be based upon the OLD Mosaic Covenant. This means that it would be something different. This was in Jeremiah 31:31. Paul quotes this specific prophesy as being fulfilled in the New Covenant that Jesus came to give us.
Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a BETTER COVENANT, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that FIRST COVENANT had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH�
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Let me repeat this part. "He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. "
What was made OBSOLETE and was ready to VANISH AWAY?
The Mosaic Covenant which the Ten Commandments are a distinct part of.
Here again is the other one.
Heb 10:8-10
8 Above when he said, "Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered .....BY THE LAW";
9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (KJV)
What did God take away? " He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."
He is talking about the Mosaic Covenant. That is the FIRST Covenant. Why did HE take it away? So as to establish the Second.
Now don't make the mistake of confusing God's MORAL PRINCIPLES with the Laws themselves. God's moral principles were re-instituted by Jesus.
I would like you to consider this. The Mosaic Covenant, all the Laws contained in it, were not universal laws given to mankind but were exclusively given to Israel, NOT Gentiles. This is very important to comprehend. Gentiles were never under "The Law", "The Mosaic Covenant" .
The Jerusalem Church had a meeting concerning this issue now that Gentiles were being grafted into this New Covenant.
(Acts 15:23-24) �The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren WHO ARE OF THE GENTILES in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings,
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, �You must be circumcised..... AND KEEP THE LAW� � TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT � it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.
For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.� .
Act 21:18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.
24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
25 BUT CONCERNING THE GENTILES who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
The New Testament Church was still working through theological issues and learning from the Holy Spirit. They were still struggling with the TWO Covenants to some degree. Over time they got it together. Romans, Galatians and Hebrews clears up the issues. But notice how they made the distinction between Jew and Gentile regarding keeping "The Law", the Mosaic Covenant. Gentiles were never under the Mosaic Covenant.
We as Christians are NOT under the Mosaic Covenant.
We are under the New and Better Covenant of Grace.
Mat 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.
Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of THE NEW COVENANT, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah 31:31 and gave Israel and Judah a New Covenant in which we as Gentiles are able to be grafted into.
We are bound by "The Law of Christ". Can you make the distinction?
John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 He who does not love Me does not keep... MY WORDS.... and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
John 15:9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep..... MY commandments,...... you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
What commandments is Jesus referring to? Clue: It is not any of the Mosaic Covenant. ;-)
... ugh. I've got to go to work. I just want to say that this topic has turned into the exact thing I'm talking about. It only took one night. I'm not trying to single anyone out here, so please don't take it that way, but I'm going to answer a few people's posts. Walter... I'm positive I'm not missing the point. I'm not being close minded here. I read your posts. I think you are missing the point... of this whole topic. focusing more on the letter of the law than what it is teaching us. Ole Cattle... I hear you. I understand that we should live lives of love. An example. The problem I'm having in particular is wanting to be with a group of believers. Since I don't agree with our current "church" system, I naturally don't want to be a part of it. At the same time, though, I want a group of believers that I can share fellowship with. A group to share communion with. A group to sing and worship with. basically... the church. If I continue supporting the system I believe is wrong... what kind of example am I setting for youth. Unbelievers. Other Christians. I'm supporting the life that I don't want to live and that I don't want THEM to live. I just don't know how to handle it. I don't know. I'm praying about it. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what happens. I just wanted some advice or some views from y'all about either how to handle it, if YOU have felt this way before, if you feel this way NOW... Cause I don't get just flat out lost very often (thankfully). It is REALLY frustrating when it happens, though. Thanks everyone.
There is a TV preacher named Joseph Prince who preaches radical grace. You are going to love this guy. I listened to him for a year or so and learned a lot.
He is on direct TV satellite on several channels. His web address is JosephPrince.org
He has several dvd series that would well be worth the money.
Typing on a Blackberry Curve is not the most fun thing to do so I won't type a great deal here. LOL
Fisrt I do believe there are good churches out there but none are perfect. My former Pastor from my former church once said.; "if you find the perfect church, don't go to it because you will mess it up".LOL
Seriously though. I think the church I attend is very Biblically based and the teachins are really good. Tim is an excellent teacher. You can study online and also download sermons on audio. www.oasischristianchurch.org
Also we operater just like the model we are given in scripture.
I think it is important to find a good church and support the ministry providing you agree with them theologically.
Regarding the "LAW". I am not concentrating on the letter but on the proper exegesis of the scripture. There is a difference between the two Covenants and their requirements. If the Mosaic Law is still in force then all of it is including animal sacrifices and stoning your children if they are bad enough.
But now and especially as Gentiles we don't have to do animal sacrifices, or keep the Sabbath, etc.
If anyone believes that they have to keep any of the Mosaic Laws they are bound to keep the whole law and are under condemnation.
We are only bound to the terms and conditions of the NEW Covenent.
its so hard for two people to totally agree on every little thing bout the bible..
my main preacher and mentor and i never agreed on every little thing he ever preached or said..
but i surely agreed with him on most every little thing.. and the little things we didnt see eye to eye on were the things he didnt preach on but very seldom..
so i could live with that .. if you change churches you may again encounter the same things with a different pastor as well..
when lookin for a church my maine things are to find one where we believe alike on most everything.. the main sermons and where he goes with them.. the majority id say..
then im lookin at how are the people there? are they showing the spirit of CHRIST and the pastor too.
the leaders of the church , how do they represent CHRIST..
do the people make you feel welcome and at home amongst them.. are they loving towards everyone.. not just the big wigs.. do they help those in need in their community?
youll definitely wanna read their bylaws before you join..
its ok to visit though even if you dont agree with all the bylaws and not wanna join..
sometimes we learn things at the strangest of times, places and people we didnt think we would ever learn anythin from..
another thing for me is its not the size of the building or the number of people there but what is the heart of the church..
and can i live with that..
sometimes you just gotta walk away and look elsewhere, if it gets to be too much for ya that ya just cant handle..
its a tough decision but one that only you can make for yourself.. ill be prayin that youll get some discernment on what you should do here my friend..
