Was Jesus wrong about nobody knowing when he will return? If the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation, then he may be wrong.
THE RAPTURE:
The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible. The word "Trinity" doesn't either. We use these two words to talk about Biblical facts without giving the long version. The rapture is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18. Continue on into Chapter 5. In verse 9 we are told that God hasn't destined us for wrath. The Tribulation is a period of wrath for those who want to do evil and reject God and follow Satan. In reading the Book of Revelation, you will find that in chapters 1-3 the Church and Churches are the main topics. In the Bible, prophecy can have a meaning for the present and also the future. The Church in Laodicea (3:14-22) also represents Christainity today. Many churches preach stuff that is not in the Bible. It is a "feel good" message. Notice that in Chapters 4-22:16, the words church and churches are not used. That is because chap. 4 starts by showing us the time of the rapture. In 2 Thessalonians Chap. 2 the Anti-Christ is talked about. In verses 6-7 we are told that he will not be revealed until the restrainer is taken out of the way. This is The Holy Spirit, who works to bring people to the Lord. See John 16:8. The Holy Spirit leaves with the Church. Then the world can do all that it wants. Remember that Jesus said that no one knows the day and hour of his return. However, if the rapture doesn't come just before the tribulation then he will be wrong. In Daniel 12, Daniel is told about the end. In verse 11, he learns that from the time that the abomination of desolation is set up; there will 1,290 days until the end. This refers to the middle of the tribulation when the Anti-Christ enters the Temple in Jerusalem and sets up his image for all to worship. When that happens, just start counting the days and you will know when Jesus is to return. If the Church is removed at the middle of the tribulation, then the same thing applys; we can figure out when the Lord is coming. Also, if the rapture comes at the end of the tribulation, then they will be nobody to populate the earth during the 1,000 years reign of Christ on earth. The world will be populated during that time and children will be born. Only believers will enter this kingdom. resurrected believers will rule with Christ during this time.
It is very simple. If Jesus only gathers up the Christians at the end of the tribulation, then is coming will not be a surprize, we wil know when he is coming.
When the Israelites were camped by the mountain; a trumpet sound from up on the mountain called the people to assemble by the mountain. Which one of the trumpet blasts in Rev. was this, or is it possible that trumpets are used by God in places other than the tribulation. If you use an exhaustive concordance you will see that God uses trumpet blasts for purposes other than just in the trib. Also, the 7th trumpet in Rev. is not a quick event. It just starts the prolonged sets of judgements before the end. In the tribulation period, Satan is focusing on Israel and the Jews. This follows the current events where Islam is growing fast in Europe. In England, churches are being converted to Mosques. There will be war against Israel. So why isn't the Church talked about as having war against it?
Once again; if Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation, then there is no secret about his return and his talk about it being secret will be wrong.
In Daniel, he was being told about the end. Jesus also talked about what was to happen in the Temple. That hasn't happened yet. So converting days to years doesn't work here. Daniel's 70th week hasn't started yet. The 1,290 days starts in the middle of the tribulation.
You are trying to prove your point through Pretrib philosophical arguments and not through properly exegeted scriptures. Every passage dealing with the Rapture is always POST-Trib. Please go to my response to you and study the post and then demonstrate where I am in error, if at all.
Let's do this.
Let's go to the most famous Rapture passage.
The Church has historically taught since the time of the Apostles up until the late 1700s AD that Christians, Christ's Church, The Bride will suffer through the Great Tribulation. Every passage dealing with this issue clearly demonstrates that it is Post-Tribulation Pre-Mill.
Here is just one post dealing with this.
1 Corinthians 15: 50-54
Below is one of the key main Resurrection and Rapture passages. Notice the context in verse 50. The Kingdom of God. Now the Kingdom we all know is not physically established on Earth until Christ returns AFTER the Great Tribulation. This is where He sets up His Kingdom on Earth, forever. This is part of the context.
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Why are we going to be changed? Because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God".
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The phrase: The dead shall be raised incorruptible refers to the Resurrection of the bodies of the dead believers in Christ.
The phrase: "and we shall be changed, refers to the Rapture", which immediately follows the Resurrection.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The phrase: Death is swallowed up in victory, is an Old Testament prophesy found in Isaiah 25:8
Notice that Paul tells us WHEN the resurrection and Rapture will occur. When an Old Testament passage comes to past. This is where we must look to Isaiah 25:8. But before you do, it would be good to read all of chapter 24 and then 25 to get the context. In summary, chapter 24 ends with a great earthquake and the "Sun and Moon" signs occuring and then the entire context of Isaiah 25 is the beginning of the establishment of the Kingdom of Christ here on Earth, which we know occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation. Also notice that God will wipe away all tears from off ALL faces. There is no question as to the timing of the Rapture here. It is clearly Post-Tribulational.
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
When does God wipe away ALL tears from off ALL faces?
After Christ returns which is after the Great Tribulation where He sets up His Kingdom here on Earth. Paul has clearly told us that the future Resurrection AND Rapture occurs AFTER the Tribulation.
One more important point I will add to this is concerning Isaiah 24. Isaiah 25 follows 24 in proper sequence.
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
This is an interesting passage in not only that it talks about the Lord reigning but also the Sun and Moon signs. Why is this significant? Because the sun and moon signs are the signs that occur AFTER the Tribulation ends and just prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ our Lord. This is also known as "The Day of the Lord".
Acts 2: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
How do we know this is AFTER the great Tribulation? Let's see when Jesus places this event.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
So as we can see, all the passages above speak very clearly as the Resurrection AND the Rapture occuring AFTER the Great Tribulation, proving once again that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a seriously False Doctrine / Teaching and that the Post-Tribulation/Pre-Millennial Rapture is the only correct Biblical position.
Well, like I said....the Israelites were in Egypt during the 10 plagues but they were protected from most if not all of them. They were God's people too. Maybe the same thing will apply in the last days. I really don't know...it is in the future, but God does take care of His own. On the other hand, Christians were persecuted horribly...set on fire, fed alive to animals. These were martyrs...God's people...why did they suffer so terribly? All I know is this life is not heaven, and therefore not without pain. Heaven is cheap enough though. A little persecution and pain is worth it. A little tribulation would be worth it too.
