No Need to appologize! If you didn't believe as strongly as you do you would be a lukewarm Christian.
Your point about Christ being born in the fall is one of the arguments that can be presented because of that fact that most scholars feel that His Ministry lasted 3 and 1/2 years, but that time frame can not be asserted with a certainty of being correct. If it is, than Jesus was born probably during the Festival of Sukkot.
Pagan dates were chosen on purpose just as pagan sites were chosen as places to build Churches -- as a replacement for those pagan site and rituals.
The answer is contained in this passage and yes we do and can know the date of His actual birth.
Rev 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Verse one tells us from a celestial sign that occurs only once each year. Rosh Hashana, the Jewish New Year. This day commemorates the first day of Creation. It makes sense that Jesus would be born on this day because HE is the only Begotten Son of God. Remember Jesus fulfilled specific events on specific Jewish Feast Days.
10 REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT OBSERVE CHRISTMAS
I�m quite aware of the fact that writing this study about the most popular Holiday of the year is not the best way to be popular�especially during this time of year.
"What�s the matter, preacher man, you playing Dr.Killjoy? Are you a party basher? You think you�re too good to celebrate the birth of the greatest man who ever lived? Everybody�s doing it, man! The whole country's doing it. And here you are, you and other fanatical crazies like yourself, all of you holding out because of a few minor technicalities. O.k., so Christmas is pagan in origin, so what? So Dec. 25th isn't the birthday of Christ, and the apostles and early Chrisians didn't celebrate His birth. No one is arguing with you about that. But so what? Who cares? What difference does it make? Look, this is the one time of the year when our children have more fun than any other, and when more people are talking about Jesus! That�s right, they�re talking about our Jesus. And then there's all those terrific Christmas concerts and Christmas carols, and happy faces and happy reunions, and gifts, and great food and all that sort of thing. But what do you and those other social misfits like yourself want to do? Nothing. That�s right, nothing�unless it�s to sit back and criticize the rest of us. You want my opinion? I think you're a bunch of self-righteous, nit-picking, Bible quoting, fault-finding Scrooges, all of you! Bury Scrooge, brother, turn up the music, put a smile on your face and join the crowd. It's time to accelerate to celebrate! Here, have a tree! Dress it up!"
"So what......Who cares......What does it matter?" Isn't that where the problem really lies? Few professing Christians that I know are concerned enough about this Holiday to even find out if it does matters. In a response to this alarming apathy, I have drawn up what I believe are ten sound Biblical reasons why it does matter, deeply and eternally.
1. THE WORD OF GOD, we're told, "throughly furnishes" the believer "unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Since it does not furnish us to celebrate the birthday of Christ, how can it be a "good work" � or how can it please God? Heb. 11:6 tells us that "without faith it is impossible to please Him." The source of faith? "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. i.e., faith is simply taking God at His Word. We�re told that "the just shall live by faith....we walk by faith, not by sight. Luke 6:46; Rom. 10:17; Gal. 3:11; 2 Cor. 5:7.
2. TRADITIONS OF MEN vs. THE BIBLE. : It is no secret that the day of Christ's birth is not recorded in the Bible, neither are we told how many wise men there were, nor do the Scriptures record that they were Kings of the Orient, or that the star came and stood over the manger where the Christ child lay. Yet these and other legends have become so engrained in the public conscience that they are annually presented as fact in songs, pageants, plays, books, radio and t.v. In these, and other stories, tradition has replaced the Bible. But God says, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION OF MEN....." Col. 2:8. (emphasis added)
The power of tradition to shackle and control the minds of those who come to worship at its shrine, is never more evident than at this time of year when sleigh-bells, Rudy the red-nosed reindeer, Santa Clauses, Christmas trees, lights and gifts, manger scenes and tinseled, starlit window dressing, dominate malls and downtown shopping centers.
3. THE MONEY CHANGERS: Regardless of their religious persuasions, businessmen all over America join hands in sweet accord to make merchandise of the birthday of Christ. Some can't even wait until Thanksgiving to begin their "Chri$tma$ adverti$ing. But it isn't long before the ring of sleigh bells and cash registers drown out the sounds of thanksgiving�and the gift-rush is on. Merchants brace themselves for a lucrative touchdown as crowds overflow their stores.
4. "HIGHLY ESTEEMED": Christ said, "That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God." Luke 16:15 Christian friend, do you know of any other day of the year that is more highly esteemed in America, and in many other countries, than this farce called "CHRISTMAS"?
5. THE ORIGIN OF YULETIDE: Encyclopedia Americana�Vol. 6; page 623 "Christmas, derived from the medieval Christes Masse, the Mass of Christ, the feast commemorating the birth of Jesus, observed by the Western [Roman Catholic] Church annually on the 25th of December.....In the 5th century, the church ordered the birth of the Savior to be celebrated forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol (the sun) as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed. The holly, the mistletoe, the yule log, the wassail bowl are RELICS OF PRE-CHRISTIAN TIMES." (emphasis added)
Encyclopedia Britannica�14th edition, vol. 5; p. 642� "Christmas Customs are an evolution from times that long antedated the Christian period�a descent from seasonal, pagan, religious and national practices, hedged about with legend and tradition. Their seasonal connections with the pagan feasts of the winter solstice relate them to the beginning of time." (emphsis added)
6. THE WORD "CHRISTMAS" is derived from the contraction of two words, "CHRIST" and "MASS." the Christes masse, or the Mass of Christ. What is the MASS? Roman Catholicism teaches that it is one of many essential steps to salvation. In the celebration of the offering of Christ in the Mass, we're expected to believe that the priest, by the "miracle of transubstantiation," turns the bread and wine into the actual physical body and blood of Jesus Christ, (under the appearance of bread and wine) which are then offered as a daily sacrifice of Christ for remission of sins and the ultimate salvation of its members.
Hebrews 10:12 & 26, however, disagrees. Rome's own Confraternity Douay Version of the Bible tells us that because Christ "OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS.....THERE REMAINS NO LONGER A SACRIFICE FOR SINS." This truth is confirmed in Hebrews 7:27, where we read that Christ offered Himself for sins "ONCE FOR ALL." Strange that Rome's clearly expressed purpose for the Mass is diametrically opposed by her very own version of the Bible!
7. THE "CHRISTMAS TREE," as we know it today, has descended from a long line of trees used for centuries by pagans in the idolatrous worship of their gods, carved from trees.
In communicating with Israel about this matter, God said, "Thus saith the Lord, learn not the way of the heathen.....for the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest.....they deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not, They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not; they must needs be borne, because they cannot go...." Jeremiah 210:21-5. Does this not have a familiar ring to it?
Footnote: God says of trees, "Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil; neither also is it in them to do good." What most Christians fail to realize is that behind the use of the tree is a force, a power, an authority of evil that perpetuates the annual practice of cutting a tree out of the forest, decorating it with silver and gold and angels and stars, bells, animals, lights and snow. Read 1 Cor. 11:20 in context. Demons, who are referred to by the apostle Paul as "principalities and powers, [as] the rulers of the darkness of this world" are behind every religious event, celebration, holiday and custom not authorized by the Word of God. Read Eph. 6:12 with 1 Cor. 10:19-20 thoughtfully.. Paul concludes, "....and I would not that ye should have fellowship with demons."
Today, the tree remains as popular as ever, both with the majority of believers and unbelievers alike. Thus the words of the Lord Jesus to the Scribes and Pharisees are as applicable to this present generation as they were in His day: "Ye [have] made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition full well ye reject the commandment of God that ye may keep your own tradition." Matt. 15:6; Mark 7. Again note this warning in Col. 2:8: "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men.... and not after Christ."
8. EXCUSES: "Hey, brother, everybody's celebrating the birthday of Christ, why aren't you?" Because, says God, "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil." Exod. 23:2 "Well, I can't see that it hurts anything." God says, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Sin hurts. "But it gives our children a lot of pleasure." You mean it gives you a lot of pleasure. "Just the same, it reminds unbelievers of the birthday of Christ and makes it easier to reach them for Christ." Romans 3:8 asks, "Shall we do evil, that good may come"? "But think how the poor and homeless are cared for this time of year, that counts for something doesn�t it?" God says, "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice."1 Sam. 15:22. Incidentally, friend, who cares for the poor and homeless AFTER "Christmas"? Will their needs be any less in January or February? Where will the so-called "spirit of Christmas" have gone during the two coldest months of the year? For most, it will have ceased to exist till next December. That alone should speak volumes!
9. "SANTA CLAUS" � A harmless legend? Once your child has been shockingly disillusioned regarding "Santa," he may find it very difficult to be-lieve the gospel. You lied to him about big-hearted "Santa"� who you know does not exist�now he may secretly distrust you concerning his need for Christ� who you know does exist! And, rest assured, friend, the enemy of our souls will do all he can to fan the flames of disbelief in your child.
Dr. Paul Popenoe, in one of his columns entitled, "Your Family and You," once wrote that, "Parents should not lie to their children," He then quoted Dr. Brock Chisholm, former director of the World Health Organization, who said, "Among all the lies that parents commonly tell their children, I believe the highly organized one about Santa Claus is the most destructive.
Think about it, parent. During his most formative years (1-7) you repeatedly impressed on your child, "If you want gifts from Santa you gotta� be good." A few years later, in order to win him over to Christ, you share the gospel. But, to be saved from the guilt and penalty of sin, your youngster must now realize that he is NOT good, that, "...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God... [that]..."there is none that doeth good, no not one." Rom. 3:23; Rom. 3:10-12.
First you taught him to "be good and do good" to deserve Santa�s gifts, now you�re telling him, "there is none good." How these mixed signals impact your youngster may be crucial to his acceptance of the gospel. I would humbly suggest that as you work with him, you first admit where you sinned in lying to him about how he must "be good and do good" in order to receive gifts from a fake Santa Claus. Then build on that confession. And pray God that He will overrule your folly by helping your son, early on, to truly understand his lost condition. If we are all basically good, who needs a Savior? But the Lord Jesus said, "They that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous [those who believe they are "good enough"] but sinners [members of Adam's family who realize their lost and sinful state] to repentance." (emphasis added) Mk. 2:17
10. CHRIST'S BIRTHDAY: If your family held a birthday party for you today, friend, who would receive the gifts? Would your kinfolk exchange gifts with one another while inviting you to merely blow out the candles? How absurd! Yet friends and foes of Christ, alike, give gifts to one another and tell us they are celebrating His birth. How totally and sinfully inappropriate!
THE CHOICE IS OURS: Dear reader, shall we obey the Word of God and quit learning "the way of the heathen," or shall we go on blinding ourselves to the sober warnings of the Bible and observe again with a Christ-rejecting, Christ-hating world, a holiday fraught with paganism, debauchery, legends, traditions and vain customs of men? Shall we turn from religious traditions because God commands it, or shall we again join unbelievers in celebrating a program that is largely characterized by religious festivities, lying to children, drunkenness, gluttony, revellings, immorality, drug-abuse, a dramatic rise in car accidents, murders, suicides, depression, and the list goes on and on.
May God help us who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity, to be like David of old who said, "Therefore, I esteem all Thy precepts concerning all things to be right; AND I HATE EVERY FALSE WAY." (emphasis added) Psa. 119:128. Oh, Christian friend, let's truly despise the things that God despises and cleave to those things that Scripturally honor His Son. And may we not fear to take an unflinching, uncompromising stand alongside the risen Christ during this day of His rejection! As unpopular as that may be, we'll be glad in eternity that we did!
CAN YOU ANSWER THIS QUESTION? Why is it that the world loves the the babe in the manger but hates, despises and rejects the man on the cross? Was He not as meek and lowly when He died for our sins as when He was an infant? Of course, but Christ said, "they hated me without a cause." John 15:25 with Matt. 11:28-30
I don't pray to my bible. I don't usually pray with it either. I wear clothes when I pray, but that does not mean I'm worshiping my clothes, lol...and even if it was, it would be against the commandment. I would be wrong as well. Justifying your belief by trying to point out that I'm "just as wrong" is not very cool..
"prays to humans"
Praying for someone, and praying to someone are also very different. Mary cannot help us. For one thing...I don't believe people are in heaven looking down on us, and even if they were...the bible says that people who have died have no place in anything done under the sun. The dead know nothing.
"changes the commandments of God"
Last time I checked they removed the 2nd commandment and split the 10th one in two, so they could still have ten. Maybe that's something else that they have corrected, but I'm pretty sure it was that way at one time. Could be wrong though. But they also claim to have "transferred the solemnity of the sabbath to Sunday", which would also be a change to the commandments that's not found in the bible.
"claims infallibility"
Also...at one time the pope claimed to be perfect and infallible.
Anyway...if you admit your church needs reform...then that's cool. So does mine...maybe we'll all reform in to the same church again. But I hope it's a church with the bible as it's only foundation.
And about the 3 1/2 year thing...if you study prophecy out to an extreme(which I'm not awesome at)...you'll find a 7 year period that started with the baptism of Jesus, at the middle of that 7 year period Jesus was crucified, and at the end is when Israel stoned Stephen and "filled their cup"(the last week of the 70 week prophecy). Anyway...it's in Daniel 9:20-27...which talks about the time allotted to Israel before God left their presence. Its not as complicated as it sounds...I'm just not good at explaining it :goofball: I probably messed something up too, lol...but anyway...the point is I believe the bible backs up the 3 1/2 year thing. Obviously it'd be hard to discern the exact day...but once again...I don't think it matters too much. I don't care WHEN He was born, I care THAT He was born...
I'm not sure if this is the most accurate chart or not...but you can see the 70 week prophecy in there.
As far as Christmas goes, it's fine for Christians to celebrate it just like it is to celebrate independence day...just don't worship the day...or the tree...
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. Vayikra (Leviticus) 23:23-25
Make yourself two trumpets of silver, of hammered work you shall make them; and you shall use them for summoning the congregation and for having the camps set out. B'midbar (Numbers) 10:2
Also in the day of your gladness and
in your appointed feasts, and on the first days of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be as a reminder of you before your God. I am the LORD your God. B'midbar (Numbers) 10:10
And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you. B'midbar (Numbers) 29:1
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Yeshua (Jesus) in Mattityahu (Matthew) 24:29-31
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law. Nechemyah (Nehemiah) 8:2-3
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto the LORD your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law. Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength. So the Levites stilled all the people, saying, Hold your peace, for the day is holy; neither be ye grieved. And all the people went their way to eat, and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great mirth, because they had understood the words that were declared unto them. Nechemyah (Nehemiah) 8:8-12
Rosh Hashanah or Biblically "Yom Teruah" is the beginning of the Hebrew Civil Year. It falls on the 1st of Tishri in the English month of September.
Rosh Hashanah(the Birthday of the World) is Biblically referred to as Yom Teruah (the Day of the Awakening Blast). Literally, in the Scriptures the day is referred to as Zikhron Teruah (Memorial of Blowing). In English we refer to it as The Feast of Trumpets.
Yom Teruah - The Day of the Awakening Blast
The theme of this Holy Day is repentance. The season of repentance begins 30 days earlier on Elul 1 and lasts for 10 more days until Yom Kippur. Each day of the season the shofar is blown and Tehillim (Psalm) 27 is read. The season is called the season of teshuvah. On Yom Teruah a series of blasts are blown for all people to hear and awake from spiritual slumber. Scripturally, the twin silver trumpets are the instruments blown on this Holy Day that falls on the first of the month.
The rams horn is associated with the substitute sacrifice for Yitzchak (Isaac) in B'resheet (Genesis) 22. Yitzchak is a pre-type of Yeshua (Jesus) in both his near miracle birth and his near sacrifice on Mount Moriah by his father Avraham (Abraham).
Yeshua modeled for us the perfect Torah observant lifestyle. During the month of Elul and on the day of our spiritual awakening we examine our lives to see how we might better live our lives as He would have us live them.
Prophectially, the day is associated with inscription in the Book of Life and the Resurrection of the Dead.
Rosh Hashanah / Yom Teruah occurs on the new moon of the Jewish month of Tishri. Due to the fact that the day falls on the Rosh Chodesh/new moon and the difficulty in spreading the word that the Holy Day had arrived the Jewish leaders made Rosh Hashanah a two day event.
In Biblical Times the people awaited the day with much anticipation. Since Yom Teruah occurred on Rosh Chodesh it's actual date was uncertain until confirmation of the new moon sighting by two witnesses. This is why the day is often referred to as the day which only the Father knows.
The day was spent in the Temple blowing the shofars and trumpets and doing the required sacrifices. The people were building themselves up for the day of Yom Kippur when their spiritual condition as a nation would be examined by God and they would be granted atonement or not.
Today the date of Yom Teruah or Rosh Hashanah is usually foreknown. Using computers we can determine the moons visibility and know the date ahead of time.
Leading up to the date we establish a mindset of repentance - examining our lives for sin and seeking to improve ourselves in His will.
On the day of Yom Teruah we gather with our congregations. We listen to the trumpets to awaken from spiritual slumber and seek His forgiveness, and His strength and guidance in repentance.
As believers, through Yeshua's perfect sacrifice, we are redeemed so we take this opportunity to draw closer to Him and cleanse our lives of sin.
We have a feast for family and friends which features fruits and honey. Our egg bread is baked in the shape of a crown. It is a joyous occasion due to the redemption provided by Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ).
Just a thought...How important is it to obey and please The Great Awsome God?
Jer.10:1,This is what the Lord says,Learn not the way of the heathern,
Verse 3, For the customs of the people are vain...Should that tell us something about Christmas? And about what God actally thinks about observing pagan practices?
Brothers and Sisters...May I have your attention please.
This thread is about one specific thing. The Actual Birthday of Christ. It is very important to not hijack a thread and turn it into a discussion of other things. If you want to discuss something else, then by all means start your own thread about it. When we lose focus about a given subject of which the thread is about, we lose the value of the meaning of that topic.
Is the Actual Brithday of Jesus September the 1st or 29th? What I found by the Jewish new year was what I posted earlier but all this information is new to me so, I could use some guidence of the actual day. Thanks GivenLife
usblueyes66, You made an excellent point and we must not forget what Paul told us not to do that was inspired from the Lord.
Galatians 4:8 ��Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 �But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 �Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 �I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
It seems most only want to hear from God what will fit their doctrines regardless what God says on the subject.
Romans 10:17 �So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 14:23 �And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
