As the times and seasons of the 2nd Coming of Christ seem to be approaching it would be good for us to be sure beyond any shadow of a doubt as to what the scriptures actually say about this subject.
The oldest documented view in Church history is the Post-Tribulation Pre-Millennial position. It is older than the new Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory by approximately 1800 years. Prior to the late 1700s AD the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory did not exist. That's right...it is a new invention, a new belief not supported by Church history nor is it supported by any scriptures. Let's examine the scriptures in their more complete context which Pre-Trib. authors rarely ever quote the whole passage. Why? Because if they did then it would prove them to be wrong.
1 Corinthians 15: 50-54
Below is one of the key main Resurrection and Rapture passages. Notice the context in verse 50. The Kingdom of God. Now the Kingdom we all know is not physically established on Earth until Christ returns AFTER the Great Tribulation. This is where He sets up His Kingdom on Earth, forever. This is part of the context.
1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Why are we going to be changed? Because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God".
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The phrase: The dead shall be raised incorruptible refers to the Resurrection of the bodies of the dead believers in Christ.
The phrase: "and we shall be changed, refers to the Rapture", which immediately follows the Resurrection. This is important to understand the sequence of events.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN SHALL BE BROUGHT TO PASS the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.
The phrase: Death is swallowed up in victory, is an Old Testament prophesy found in Isaiah 25:8
Notice that Paul tells us... WHEN.... the Resurrection and Rapture will occur.
When an Old Testament passage comes to past. This is where we must look to Isaiah 25:8. But before you do, it would be good to read all of chapter 24 and then 25 to get the context. In summary, chapter 24 ends with a great earthquake and the "Sun and Moon" signs occurring [ which is after the Tribulation] and then the entire context of Isaiah 25 is the beginning of the establishment of the Kingdom of Christ here on Earth, which we know occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation.
Also notice that God will wipe away all tears from off ALL faces. There is no question as to the timing of the Rapture here. It is clearly Post-Tribulational.
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
When does God wipe away ALL tears from off ALL faces?
After Christ returns which is after the Great Tribulation where He sets up His Kingdom here on Earth. Paul has clearly told us that the future Resurrection AND Rapture occurs AFTER the Tribulation.
One more important point I will add to this is concerning Isaiah 24. Isaiah 25 follows 24 in proper sequence.
Isaiah 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
This is an interesting passage in not only that it talks about the Lord reigning but also the Sun and Moon signs.
Why is this significant?
Because the sun and moon signs are the signs that occur AFTER the Tribulation ends and just prior to the 2nd Coming of Christ our Lord. This is also known as "The Day of the Lord".
Acts 2: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
How do we know this is AFTER the great Tribulation? Let's see when Jesus places this event.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
So as we can see, all the passages above speak very clearly as the Resurrection AND the Rapture occurring AFTER the Great Tribulation, proving once again that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a seriously False Doctrine / Teaching and that the Post-Tribulation/Pre-Millennial Rapture is the only correct Biblical position.
I think I'll pass on this dance. I don't have a clue as to what "Amillennialism and/or Partial-Prete" is or " preterism" or " Full-Preterism" and certainly not a clue what " Partial-Preterist/Amillennial" is or means. But I think I've heard "Chiliasm" before at a Jazz concert...can't remember what it means though.
Boy...The Apostles must have had a really hard time explaining all this stuff to poor simple peasants. I can see Paul right now
"The thing about Chillism is that it is not Prenatalism but more like Anti-ism...do you all see?"
When did we become so Pedantic? So enthralled in taking God's Word and tacking it to the wall and dissecting it as if we were Doctors of the Word performing an autopsy to Finally figure out what The Apostles meant instead of taking the word of those that heard it from the same Apostles themselves.
The meaning of Scripture (it's interpretation) was given to The Apostles before Scripture was even written! Everything they needed to know was supplied to them by Christ and The Holy Spirit. This was preserved and passed on to Trustworthy Elders who passed it on to Trustworthy Elders and so on. Jesus Promised that it would not be corrupted and that it would be there when He returns.
We have managed to take something that was simple and pure and understandable by the masses and Complicate it to the Max!
Heck... I wonder if any of The Apostles would understand any of what you guys are talking about.
Hello Walter --- you wrote (QUOTE) Hi RickC, No offense meant.
You said: "The reason being: they are fully consistent with orthodox, historic, Christianity!" WALTER: I have to strongly disagree as historically for the first 200 years, the Orthodox, most dominated view in Christianity by the Early Church Fathers has been Chiliasm. Yes there were other teachings but they were considered heretical.
Jesus did bodily resurrect in His flesh and ascended in His flesh and will return in His flesh just as He said He would. 70AD was in no way any sort of return of Christ or any form of an establishment of His Kingdom. Christ's future Kingdom will be a physical one here upon the Earth.
(MY REPLY) Walter --- One more off-topic post, then I'm done. There have been premillennialists and amillennialists since earliest times in Church History. Eusebius reported that the great grand nephews of Jesus were amillennialists (they being the great grandsons of Jude, the Lord's brother). There probably wasn't a consensus in the Church until after Augustine. I don't recall any particular view about the millennium ever being condemned in any Church Council, though premillennialsim may have been after Augustine(?). Other than this, and going by your comments; I don't think you know and/or understand the *very radical differences* between Full-Preterism and Partial-Preterism. I can send you a link to some lectures by Steve Gregg that explains them, if you would like. If so, send me a private message. Thanks!
All this secret prophesy stuff wasn't really meant to be completely understood by everyone in the days of the apostles. "Seal up the book until the time of the end", "Knowledge shall increase". We really shouldn't even need time prophecies. The only real practical reason for it would be to prove that the bible has been accurate and true in the past, so it will be true in the future. Otherwise we really should just be focusing on living a Christ-like life, and spreading the word of God.
I know...I was trying to say that this IS the time most of the prophecies are important. The end of this world is when the whole truth is going to come out. Back in the days of the apostles, the last day prophecies were "sealed" except for maybe some special "hearers of the word".
matthew 24:36-44 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
no one really knows cept GOD THE FATHER.. JESUS S warning to us is to always be ready.. always.
What exactly do you mean by "no one knows except God the Father?"
Are you trying to say that no one knows if it's Post-Trib or Pre-Trib?
If so then I have to disagree as the scriptures are abundantly clear as it is Post-Trib. Pre-Mill. Scriptures do not support any other view.
If you are meaning that no one knows when this will occur in time. Well that depends on certain events in prophesy occurring. This is why.
When Jesus said that "no one knows" the word "knows" or "knoweth" in the KJV is written in "present tense". In other words what Jesus was saying is that "at the time He was speaking these words no one knew". It is not a future tense word that would imply that no one would ever know. If Jesus had meant that no one would ever know then He would have used the word in a "future tense".
According to Daniel and Jesus referred to Daniel in Mat 24, that when the "Abomination of desolation" is set up in the Temple in Jerusalem then we have 1290 days. So from that prophetic event occurring we know we have 1290 days.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.NKJV
Remember that in Mat 24 & Mark 13, Jesus gave us the signs that we as Christians are to be "watching" for. Paul also stressed that in 1 Thess5 we are to be "watching for "The Day of the Lord" which by the way occurs after the Great Tribulation.
dear walter, what i mean is that no one knows the day or the hour.. cept GOD the FATHER..
ive never preached on this subject for a few reasons..
i havent felt led to or been given a sermon on this.. and for the verses above..
and also for the reason of it can tend to lull some people into a sense of false security.. that maybe they dont need to get ready now as they can wait till later after a future event to get ready... till then they can just not get saved and live like they want to..
i much prefer to tell folks ,hey youd best be ready any second now.. as you never know when GODS gonna call your number and take you home.. i prefer folks to be and get ready now instead of waiting..
and if youre already ready and saved and have your house in order then why worry bout it..lets say ok you maybe have to live through it... i say ok,,,,,, soooo worst they can do is kill ya... then you get to be with JESUS... and if it happens you get picked up later .. then you still get to be with JESUS.. so to me its a win win situation if youre always ready..
i understand alot of folks do like to discuss this.. so carry on.. im not tryin to be rude or disrespectful.. i just dont feel like i should be in this one so much.. and now hopefully you understand why i dont.. thanks
Christians are told to put on their Gospel armor, why? (Eph 6:11) To protect from the fiery darts of Satan & we are called soldiers, why? (2Tim2:2-3, Eph 6:12)This is a spiritual war and when it comes to troops you have your average soldier and you have your special forces. What military pulls out its Special Forces right before the battle? If all of God�s elect are to be raptured away at any moment then who are the two witnesses? Are they of God�s elect? (Zech 4:12-14, Rev 11:3-4). If they are, they will be on earth when Satan shows himself to the world (2Thess2:1-3), no they will be murdered in his sight (Rev 11:7). If they aren�t God�s elect then why does God give them power to do his will?
Every man/woman that joins the military knows that they may be killed in battle. Ours is a spiritual war but can be just as deadly�prison, death (Rev13:7, Dan7:21). Some Christians believe they must convert the whole world to Christianity but it is only the Word that must be preached. No one can force their child to love them, they must decide on their own. There are those who love this world so much, that they will gladly side with a one world government... are we all afraid to say U.N.?(Rev13:3-4)
Satan�s down fall was that he wanted to sit on the throne of God and it is written that he will be allowed to sit in the temple (which many are working to rebuild) as God. Peace, peace, peace (1Thess5:3), there will be no more wars between nations� Pax Roma, but there will be murders, rapes, theft, etc. and this world will count it for peace. Lucifer will present himself as an angel of light (2Cor 11:14-15). When people see fire commanded down from heaven they will follow him (2Tim2:11, Rev13:13).
There will be a rapture of sorts. Anyone who farms understands this, after the seeds are planted you wait, then when you see which are the good plants and which are weeds, you pull up the weeds, then you harvest (Mt.13:30). Know your enemy.
