"And the Pharisees came to him tempting him, and saying, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" Matt.19:3.
This question was part of an on going dispute between the Shammaite Rabbis and the Hillelite Rabbis. Jesus rejected what was known as the "Any Cause" divorce advocated by the Hillelite view. And while He rejected the any cause divorce, he did not reject all divorce for any cause.
In every passage where Jesus is quoted as saying divorce, He is actually saying put away which is very similar but not exactly the same as the divorce we think of today. He never uses the word for a written divorce certificate which is required for a (lawful) divorce according to the law Ezra 10:3b� Only when they ask about the divorce certificate does He bring up the hardness of heart. Because while many believe that put away and divorce are one and the same thing, (see http://www.christianpoly.org/divorce.php) &*note*, it was still possible for a wife to be put away and not be given a divorce certificate. This woman is called "Agunah" or a chained wife.
It is not lawful to put away a wife except for fornication which is also a cause of uncleanness as written Deut. 241.
If the husband hates the wife and puts her away he becomes hard hearted and his hatred becomes a snare unto him Mal. 2:16 (DDS). He should give the divorce certificate as the Law stated. That is why it was given in the first place (Because of hard heartedness).
Jesus rightly says from the beginning it was not so. God created them as the same flesh and sin had not yet entered their lives.
:yay: :yay:
The church has failed in its attempt to minister to divorced people making them feel as if they are less sanctified because of divorce.
Hi Tarasye, Archimedes, davesnotslave, cattleman, walter, happy, dgrimater,
Thank you for your spiritual insight into this Initially I was of the opinion that it is fine to to be with a divorcee irregardless of the reason for the divorce.
If he has forgiven himself, the xspouse, the people affected by this, has healed himself of the emotional wounds etc, who are we to say nay? Tho I have heard otherwise, yet I say why not give them a chance, to err is human, to forgive divine.
Till I came across some profiles who said no divorcees except due to infidelity, thats when I my doubts came up full force.
M glad that tarasye what you have opined I totally concur.
Good to have a council of wise men and women to fall back on when we have spiritual issues like this.
It was my wife who left me.I am the innocent by standard. She made it clear that was nothing I had done.She just did not want to be with me anymore.What some of these post said made me feel ok.I was ok with myself but it was she who put me away.
I find that I have to acquiesce when it comes to what I said about divorce and not being able to find scripture to defend it and I apologize for any offense I may have committed.
I firmly believe that Scripture has Revelation from God in it but it id not a dictation from God. The writers were Inspired by The Holy Spirit to write and wrote in their own style. They also left out somethings that were understood and perhaps had been gone over in a face to face meeting and did not need to be rehashed. Much as you would leave out details in a letter to family or friends that they were already very much familiar with.
An instructional book without a Teacher leaves room for error. A horse without a rider rambles aimlessly. This is why Our Ever Knowing God left us His Church to answer and arbitrate questions of Faith and Morals. Otherwise we would have what we have now -- everyone voicing their opinion and using the very Word of God to strenghen their position. Wouldn't it be wonderful if God left us a Real Physical (brick and mortar) Church here on earth, where we can go to for answers and Believe it because of The Authority behind it? Now we have over 30,000 Seperate churches -- some agreeing, some disagreeing and we Christians are being marginalized by non-believers because we cannot seem to be of One Accord.
I have no opinion when it comes to God and His Word. I just Believe The Truth that is present to me. The same Truth that has been held for 1000's of years and has not changed.
That being said I understand your position on Scripture Only and will adhere to it and I ask you to please continue to dialoge with me, as we need to remain Brothers and Sisters.
I appreciate your honesty as I am sure everyone else does as well.
I would like to address something with you that I believe is critical.
First I want you to know that I am a former Catholic and I am very well versed in the doctrines of the RCC and the historical truth of their origins.
The RCC has always claimed, without support, that they are the arbiters of the wisdom of God's word and it is only through their understanding and teaching that we can understand God's word. That is simply nonsense! God's word was given to all of us so that we will grow rich in HIS understanding and His truth and wisdom. The RCC wants to make the claim they do so that they can be in control and maintain power over people. Why do you think that they butchered people, Christians for owning bibles in their own language? Because they, the RCC, feared that people would learn the truth of God's word and see that the RCC was not conforming to the teachings of Christ. Now...
A person who has truly been Born Again, been saved, has become a real Christian, now has the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in him/her. As such we have the ability to receive wisdom directly from God Himself, if we listen.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
1John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
The scriptures are all inspired. Many people really do not know what that means. It means that they are "GOD BREATHED". It means that God dictated to the writers of the Holy Scriptures what HE wanted them to say. That is why there are no contradictions in the Scriptures. Excluding the Apocrypha because they are filled with errors and not considered "Inspired nor inerrant".
2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. NKJV
Do you realize the depth and impact of that passage?
ALL SCRIPTURE is given BY inspiration OF GOD. That the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped.
Archi, this could be you, if you so choose.
If you study History, the Early Church of the first 300 years and then compare those writings to what later became the RCC, you will see a drifting away from "The faith once delivered to the saints". You will see a development of man made teachings contrary to God's word.
Archi, I am going to ask you something and I do not ask to embarrass you. Have you come to a place in your life where you have come to place your complete trust and faith in Jesus Christ in that what HE did on the cross is a completed work for your benefit? In other words do you trust in His death and resurrection ONLY to save you or do you place any belief that you have to work or earn this in some way? Do you trust entirely on God's Grace to save you through what Christ did for you?
Have you been Baptized, fully submerged in water... as an Adult?
Would you like to know with 100% certainty that you will be forgiven for all your sins and know you will enter Christ's Kingdom?
Nnononono....no...the church does NOT get to interpret God's word. The Bible interprets the Bible. The church is supposed to be built on the word....not the other way around. If anything is fallible it is man's interpretation. The bible is the only infallible thing on this planet at the moment. To say it's open to interpretation/re-interpretation brings doubt on God's truth, and doubt on God's power. It's God's word! He can and will protect it! Supreme, all-powerful being? Anyone? Anyone?
dear folks, the bible is the word of GOD.. not the word of paul, or the word of peter ,or the word of matthew ,mark luke ,john ect.. all are the word of GOD , except for a couple of times paul spoke and said, it is i , not the LORD that says.....
these men were chosen and appointed by GOD,, handpicked by JESUS to carry on even after HE had ascended.. and to make sure that we got it straight from HIM...
john 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
and as we can see what JESUS told HIS diciples do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
now dont ya recon surely the HOLY SPIRIT also did the same when they was writin the words in the bible? i do recon..
LUKE 12:11-12 11 "Now when they bring you to the synagogues and magistrates and authorities, do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. 12 For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
Thank you for your dialogue and input. I hope that we will always be able to speak to each other as Brothers. I also want to say the we both Love God and we both want to do what we believe to be what God wants.
You bring up many good talking points and I would like to address just two of them for now and also to cite Scripture where ever possible.
You write 'If you study History, the Early Church of the first 300 years and then compare those writings to what later became the RCC, you will see a drifting away from "The faith once delivered to the saints". You will see a development of man made teachings contrary to God's word'
I want to expressly point out your words �...what later became the RCC,� The Catholic Church did not later become � it always was. It traces it's roots all the way back to Peter and of course, Jesus. The word Catholic (with a smallcase �c�) comes from the Greek word Katholikos, which was later Latinized into Catholicus.
It means 'Universal', which in itself means, 'of or relating to, or affecting
the entire world and all peoples therein'. It means, all encompassing,
comprehensibly broad, general, and containing all that is necessary.
In summation, it means all people in all places, having all that is
necessary, and for all time.
It is in Matthew 28:19-20, "Go, therefore and make disciples
of all nations...teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you;
And behold, I am with you all days, even unto the consummation of
the world."
That is a statement of Universality, Katholicos, Catholicus, Catholic.
By the way � Jesus said to them �...all that I have commanded you;� which to me implies everything that He said to them or taught them or showed them and as later in John we are told that Jesus said and did many things that were not written down � is all that was not written down to be ignored?
The first recorded use of the word that I can find, is in St. Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Smyrneans -- paragraph 8, of 107 A.D., "Where the Bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."
Undoubtedly the name was beginning to be used before the time of his writing.
The second point I would like to discuss is 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version) 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Let's step back to 3:14 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
�...continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,� Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition before verses.16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures. It would seem that both are to be use
2 Tim. 3:15 - Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul's teaching). also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which someone removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.
2 Tim. 3:16 - this verse says that Scripture is "profitable" for every good work, but not exclusive. The word "profitable" is "ophelimos" in Greek. "Ophelimos" only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. It would be incorrect to argue that profitable means exclusive.
2 Tim. 3:16 - further, the verse "all Scripture" uses the words "pasa graphe" which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous reading of "pasa graphe" would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use "sola Matthew," or "sola Mark," but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God's word. This, of course, is not true and even you would agree. Also, "pasa graphe" cannot mean "all of Scripture" because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless you argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.
Tim. 3:16 -
2 Tim. 3:17 - Paul's reference to the "man of God" who may be complete refers to a clergyman, not a layman. It is an instruction to a bishop of the Church. So, although some use it to prove their case, the passage is not even relevant to most of the faithful.
2 Tim. 3:17 - further, Paul's use of the word "complete" for every good work is "artios" which simply means the clergy is "suitable" or "fit." Also, artios does not describe the Scriptures, it describes the clergyman. So, you really cannot use this verse to argue the Scriptures are complete (which I believe is true, but the use of �artios� here does not speak to this point).
I hope my use of scripture was adequate and I got my meaning across. It comes down to basically that there is The Written Word of God � which is scripture and The Oral Word of God � which is what Jesus taught, said, did, commanded, that was not written down but passed on as Apostolic Tradition ( with The Holy Spirit's Guidance)d.
As for my beliefs: I believe that Jesus died for my sins (MY SINS) saving me from damnation, But!...I do not think that it is something that I can take for granted and assume I have a �Golden Ticket� to Heaven. I believe that I have to wake up every morning and grab whatever My Cross may be and carry it. My Salvation is a daily think with me.
As for being Baptisted as an adult with full sumergence � who do you think would be better able to answer that � The Church 30 years after Christ's death or a newly created church 1500 years after. I will try to find scripture to explain what I mean.
As for having to do works to �pay� my way into Heaven � not if you turned this planet into gold or emptied the ocean with a pail could you buy or work your way into Heaven. The thief on the cross next to Christ is a perfect example.
But! What good is a Faith without works? They should go hand in hand. Walter again thank you for this opportunity and I will address your other points at another time. I await your reply and...
Well...a lot of people say a lot of stuff...doesn't make it true. The catholic church worships idols. I'd like to know where the bible says thats ok. The catholic church says that Mary was sinless. I'd like to know where the bible says that. The catholic church says that priests have the power to forgive sins....and the catholic church used to believe a whole bunch of stuff that was totally unbiblical that they now apologize for...how is that an infallible church?
Do you consider kneeling before a cross and praying to God, worshipping at the foot of an idol? Much as you carry a picture of your loved ones in your wallet or a cross around your neck � statues are symbols of what you love. I would hope that no really believes or thinks that the statue is real? I have never accused a non-catholic of praying to an idol because the may pray while holding up a bible.
As for Mary being sinless � consider The Ark of The Covenant. It was made from the finest, purest, virginal, spotless wood and adorned with gold and silver and was not to be touched by anyone other than the priests. God directed this.
Mary carried Jesus for 9 months in her womb. Her blood circulated through His Immacculate Body. Do you think God would allow His PERFECT Son to rest in an INPERFECT Ark of The New Convenant?
Priests do not have the power to forgive. They are merely the instrument � much like a doctor who injects you with a antibiotic. The medicine cures, not the doctor � he is merely the instrument.
John 20:22-23 (NIV) And with that he breathed on them and said, �Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.� There are only two places in Scripture (that I can find) where God breathed on man (Adam in Gen.) and here. With this Jesus started Oracular (giving forth utterances or decisions as if by special inspiration or authority) Confession which was transferred by the Laying of Hands to those The Apostles Ordained.
Please do not confuse The Core Beliefs of The Catholic Church (Divine Doctrine) with practices, disciplines, titles, functions etc. All these things are decisions of men, which is not infallible (though I would hope that they are praying for guidance). If you were to ask The Pope to predict the stock market or answer some tough Analytical Calculus question � I would guess that he would fail. My suggestion is to read � either in libraries or a site that you trust � The Early Church Fathers.
