dear folks,, since GOD doesnt make you sin,then it has to be your choice and you choose to sin.. then when it comes to salvation , you also have to choose, whether you choose life or death..
deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
james 1:13-14 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Do we have a will? Yes, of course we have a will. , if you mean by a free will a faculty of choosing by which you have the power within yourself to choose what you desire, then we all have free will. If you mean by free will the ability for fallen human beings to incline themselves and exercise that will to choose the things of God without the prior work of regeneration then, , free will is far too grandiose a term to apply to a human being.
The arminian doctrine of free will prevalent in the evangelical world today is a view that denies the captivity of the human heart to sin. It underestimates the stranglehold that sin has upon us.
None of us wants to see things as bad as they really are. The biblical doctrine of human corruption is grim. We don�t hear the Apostle Paul say, �You know, it�s sad that we have such a thing as sin in the world; nobody�s perfect. But be of good cheer. We�re basically good.� Do you see that even a cursory reading of Scripture denies this?
Now back to Luther. What is the source and status of faith? Is it the God-given means whereby the God-given justification is received? Or is it a condition of justification which is left to us to fulfill? Is your faith a work? Is it the one work that God leaves for you to do? I had a discussion with some folks the other day and one fellow was upset.
He said, �Are you trying to tell me that in the final analysis it�s God who either does or doesn�t sovereignly regenerate a heart?�
And I said, �Yes;� and he was very upset about that. I said, �Let me ask you this: are you a Christian?�
He said, �Yes.�
I said, �Do you have friends who aren�t Christians?�
He said, �Well, of course.�
I said, �Why are you a Christian and your friends aren�t? Is it because you�re more righteous than they are?� He wasn�t stupid. He wasn�t going to say, �Of course it�s because I�m more righteous. I did the right thing and my friend didn�t.� He knew where I was going with that question.
And he said, �Oh, no, no, no.�
I said, �Tell me why. Is it because you are smarter than your friend?�
And he said, �No.�
But he would not agree that the final, decisive issue was the grace of God. He wouldn�t come to that. And after we discussed this for fifteen minutes, he said, �OK! I�ll say it. I�m a Christian because I did the right thing, I made the right response, and my friend didn�t.�
What was this person trusting in for his salvation? Not in his works in general, but in the one work that he performed. And he was a Protestant, an evangelical. But his view of salvation was no different from the Roman view.
God�s Sovereignty in Salvation
This is the issue: Is it a part of God�s gift of salvation, or is it in our own contribution to salvation? Is our salvation wholly of God or does it ultimately depend on something that we do for ourselves? Those who say the latter, that it ultimately depends on something we do for ourselves, thereby deny humanity�s utter helplessness in sin and affirm that a form of semi-Pelagianism is true after all. It is no wonder then that later Reformed theology condemned Arminianism as being, in principle, both a return to Rome because, in effect, it turned faith into a meritorious work, and a betrayal of the Reformation because it denied the sovereignty of God in saving sinners, which was the deepest religious and theological principle of the reformers� thought. Arminianism was indeed, in Reformed eyes, a renunciation of New Testament Christianity in favor of New Testament Judaism. For to rely on oneself for faith is no different in principle than to rely on oneself for works, and the one is as un-Christian and anti-Christian as the other. In the light of what Luther says to Erasmus there is no doubt that he would have endorsed this judgment.
And yet this view is the overwhelming majority report today in professing evangelical circles. And as long as semi-Pelagianism, which is simply a thinly veiled version of real Pelagianism at its core � as long as it prevails in the Church, I don�t know what�s going to happen. But I know, however, what will not happen: there will not be a new Reformation. Until we humble ourselves and understand that no man is an island and that no man has an island of righteousness, that we are utterly dependent upon the unmixed grace of God for our salvation, we will not begin to rest upon grace and rejoice in the greatness of God�s sovereignty, and we will not be rid of the pagan influence of humanism that exalts and puts man at the center of religion. Until that happens there will not be a new Reformation, because at the heart of Reformation teaching is the central place of the worship and gratitude given to God and God alone. Soli Deo gloria, to God alone be the glory!
I think it all boils down to a heart issue~~And Jesus did say He would spit out the "lukewarm" so~~that is something to think about?
I know the road is straight and narrow and we choose ALWAYS~~when does one lose salvation~~never~~but can we forfeit it?~~I think so but we have to trample over the Blood of Jesus to do that. :purpleangel:
Some Great Points there Steve. Personally this has all hit me in the little things, not the larger abstract issues, which of course are still worth contemplating and studying further.
I don't think its about being good enough, for not one among us is righteous, not even one. But I do think as we look at developing a closers walk with the Lord, this brings forth an excellent exercise in self examination for our own way of thinking. Are we thinking worldly and self centered, or Godly, more toward what the Lord would want for us. And do we want what we know is best for us? Do we want God's way or our own path?
Cuz frankly, most of us don't feel like doing that sink full of dishes or shoveling that snow. Many of us would choose to watch something in appropriate on tv or read something we would leave laying around if our Pastor was coming to visit.
Even studying the Word. How many of us "felt" like it when we first became aware of it? Mostly we came to want it more, the more we studied it, correct?
Often when it comes to the big choices, a lot of people get that right, but all those little choices go without thought. Like murder: most of us are not going to kill another person, no matter how upset we might get over something. But kill them with out words or a look or even a tone of voice, I'd have to say that most of us have already been there and done that, and will likely do it again. Yet when faced with such things if we come back to this conscious decision on whether the choice we are making is taking us closer to the Lord or further from Him, well, I think that very pause for the cause can only enhance our walk with the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is sort of like what some say about happiness, it isn't a state of mind, it is a conscious decision. I really think if one accepts the challenge to give distinctive thought toward our own decisions, it can only improve our Christian walk.
And of course, this is a solo project, you cannot do it for another person. That would just be a disaster. I think simply sharing the idea is enough, cuz it really is all about one's personal choices and decisions and the consequences we will face from our choices.
I know it gives me pause in my day with momentary reflections for the Lord that were not really there at those moments before. Any time we can put the Lord in front of what we do, I think it can only make things better.
As for what you saying about does that choice to become a Christian make you better than a neighbor that did not. The truth is that there is nothing that can make us better for we are flawed and only the blood of the lamb can remove that stain, and that is a choice. That choice does not make us better, it only makes us His, and when you are His, it becomes part of your nature to WANT to do better. For to think we could do anything right without Christ to guide our steps is truly just arrogant, for if He's not driving your life, its just a matter of time before you mess everything up. It would be like letting a four year old drive a full size automobile. We are all just one big accident waiting to happen. When you choose Christ, you choose His guidance and His ways, for its His way or your own way.
By the way....I love the way you guys think!! I feel so blessed to be part of this Family!!
The Bible teaches that we are dead in trespasses and sins since the Fall (Ephesians 2:5). It says that the mind of the flesh does not submit to God's law�indeed it cannot�and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you (Romans 8:7-9).
Paul divides the world into two groups: those who are in the flesh and those who have the Spirit. And he says that those who are in the flesh (that is, everybody apart from the new birth) cannot please God (Romans 8:7-8). And in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 he says that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit because they are foolishness to him.
Now the only question left after a group of texts like that is whether or not that inability, that "cannot," is blameworthy or not, whether it gets us off the hook or puts us deeper on the hook.
I think the Bible is pretty clear that the corruption of our own hearts, being so profound that it incapacitates us to do good, intensifies our guilt rather than relieves us of it. My inability to do good apart from the Holy Spirit is not an exonerating inability. It is an inability that is rooted square in my rebellion. And my rebellion is so great and so strong that I cannot see Christ or hear the gospel as beautiful. Rather, it is a stumbling block or foolishness; and until I'm called, awakened, born again, I cannot see it as beautiful. And that "cannot" is a culpable blindness, a culpable deafness.
So what I believe about free will is that I am free to do whatever I please, and what I please is to sin. Therefore I'm going to be damned by my free will. I must be rescued from the bondage of my free will in order to see and hear God for who he is.
Does that make me an automaton or diminish the glory of God? I don't think so, because what God does is come to me and free me from the bondage of my blindness and deafness and hardness so that, finally, I become rational and can act as a truly free human being.
Paul says in Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set you free. Do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." So true freedom is being set free from the bondage where what we wanted to do destroyed us.
Now, after new birth, what we want to do is God's will. And in that freedom we act rationally according to what really exists. Thus God gets great glory both for the liberation that he performed on our behalf and for the praises that we now bring him, not as people who are enslaved to sin, but as free people who are seeing the world for what it really is.
God gets glory in being praised for being seen for who he really is. Previously we couldn't see him for who he really is because we hated it so much. And now we do see him for who he really is, and therefore our praises are rational and clear and good, and he gets maximum glory for our obedience, faith, and praise.
So I don't believe in free will if you define it as man's ultimate self-determination. I believe free will as, "you can do whatever you please." Before you're born again what you please is self destructive and sinful. After you're born again, what you please is the will of God. So in both cases you have free will in that definition.
But what most people who are sophisticated, theological, and philosophically-oriented mean by free will�over against what I believe�is "man's ultimate self-determination." And I don't think there is any such thing, especially since the Fall when our self-determination became always in bondage to sin and therefore self-destructive.
To a certain extent I agree with that Steve, but I think that even after you make a decision for Christ and are born again of the Spirit that there is still a constant struggle against the flesh, and a conscious thought process toward making that decision for the Lord every day, can definitely improve the Walk with Him.
Are Christians Saved by Making Decisions for Christ?
13 For �everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.� 14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, �How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!� 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, �Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?� 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:13-17 ESV)
I have been in an email conversation with a believer over the last few days. The conversation has to do with �conversion� with emphasis on two views. The first view is that people are saved when they decide for Christ or make some sort of decision. The other view is that people are saved when the receive saving faith. I contend that the majority of the preaching nowadays is of the former variety while the latter is very misunderstood and not preached much at all.
Look at the passage at the top of this post (Romans 10:13-17). I remember memorizing v13 several years ago when I was in Evangelism Explosion training. We pulled that verse out of Romans 10 and used in part of our gospel presentations. Does this passage show us the human side of the order of salvation? Start in v15. Preachers of the Gospel must be sent. Then from v14 we see that the preachers are to preach the Gospel. Then people hear the Gospel. As they hear the Gospel they believe. Then they call on the name of the Lord and are saved. It is very important that we see that belief comes before a person calls on the name of the Lord. Now let�s compare this with another passage.
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 ESV)
From this passage we know that all who are saved are called according to God�s purpose. Whom does God call? He calls those whom He foreknew and predestined. What happens to those whom God called? They are justified and glorified. If we extrapolate these steps to compare them with what we learned from Romans 10:13-17 what do we have? What comes first? God foreknew those whom He is going to save. Look at the passage below. What do we learn about God�s foreknowing us?
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14 ESV)
God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. We also see that God predestined us for adoption. From Romans 8:29 we see that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. All of this happened before the foundation of the world. So let�s move forward to now. God has chosen those whom He foreknew then He predestined them. Now, where does the preacher preaching the gospel come in? It is now. This is why it is so important that preachers preach the entire Gospel comparing our depravity and violation of God�s Law with His Holiness and Righteousness. Then they must preach why Jesus came to earth and what He accomplished in His life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension. Those whom God has chosen and predestined will believe because God calls them. This is the effectual call which quickens spiritually dead people unto the New Birth. This is where God gives us the gift of belief. This belief is saving faith through which Grace is given by God and received by the new Christian. Because of this belief the new Christian repents and turns to Christ by calling on Him for salvation. Then God justifies him or her. They are now in Christ.
Did they decide for Christ or were they converted and saved by God?
Addendum: If you do not agree with the premise of this post please understand that my method of teaching is never to persuade by my words. Instead, what I attempt to do is to cause those who read what I write or hear what I teach or preach to THINK, to reason. However, that is not enough. This reasoning should always drive us to dig into God�s Word in the context of seeking the Truth, therefore, ask God to show you the truth. Don�t EVER presume that you understand everything about the subject, but rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal it to your heart. If your conscience is clear then you can trust it. If you have unresolved guilt then your conscience has become calloused. Seek the Lord, repent of what He is showing you. THEN, and only then, approach the throne of grace with your petition to know the truth. Humble yourself before Him and tell Him that you will embrace the truth He shows you. Then study the Bible. If you do this the Lord will answer and your conscience will lead you by imparting conviction as the Holy Spirit speaks to you. If you stray from the truth it will impart condemnation. If you find it it will impart commendation (joy?). You will know by these �convictions� if you know the truth
I really feel like it has to be a mutual decision. Because God IS love, you cannot know that love unless He has chased you, but the Lord can encourage you every day of your life, and if every day you reject him, that is our choice if we choose to make it so, and sadly, I think many do.
I think when we chose Him, the Holy Spirit changes our heart and the more we continue to make choices that bring us closer to Him, we make fewer choices toward things that lead away from Him, and it is that desire that grows stronger with every step closer to Him that we make that helps us grow in His Way.
So many want to choose the World and choose His Way, and cop out with that "its in my nature thing". To nurture the desire to be close and become even closer has to matter more than decisions to be lovers of pleasures for the thing that we are intrigued by.
To deny our flesh and turn our choices to focus on the Lord is something anyone can choose to do, but most will not for they are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. The heart for God has no trouble discerning this concept, but those that keep trying to twist and turn the Word to fit their ways will always have trouble understanding the very simplicity of the concept.
A true heart for the Lord will always find ways to improve their walk toward Him, for they are always wanting to grow in Him, and we will always have so very much to learn for God is So Very BIG, much Bigger than we can fathom.
It is beautiful to think that we can continue to just keep growing bigger and bigger in Him. Maybe the question is, do we have the courage to keep making that Choice for Our Lord and Savior EVERY DAY?
Truly Steven, do you not believe that your walk with Him would not grow closer if you focused on one decision at a time, one choice at a time, one step at a time?
I am truly intrigued by the beauty in its simplicity, for it just keeps turning us back to Him. Personally, how do you just feel about it?
The things of god are sometimes hard to grasp!I used to have arminian veiws myself,but then I realized,,It seems like god makes things happen,well once I thought about it(or god revealed it to me)I realized the whole bible was gods sovereign will.The baby moses just happened to float by where pharoahs daughter happened to be.Moses just happened to be raised up to lead the jews out of captivity.....ect.....you get the picture....then I realized My life is the same!I really didnt want god....He wanted me!
just like he wanted moses,joseph,david,paul....ect...and you!If you truly get this...this will deepen your walk like you can never imagine!Im not saying arminians arent saved,I beleive most of them are!Of course we make choices,but nothing happens outside of gods will,the bible is very clear on this.As far as being fair,well who are we to judge god?Im in no position to judge god.I owe my very next breath to him.He must have thought it was pretty important to create us,after all he suffered a horrible torturous death on the cross to redeem us.
One more thing,have you ever prayed for an unsaved friend or family member,I wish you would change thier heart god
well this is not the prayer of an arminian.
can you see that my beleifs give god all the glory,even our very salvation depends on him.
With love
In Christ
Steve
P.S.Not to mention the overwhelming number of verses that point to god doing the choosing.
