I am pressed for time so here is a great article I agree with in dealing with this issue. Sorry for it's length but it is worth the read. In it are quotes from Martin Luther and St. Augustine who do not agree with what Steve is presenting. The Early Church also does not agree with what Calvinist claim as neither does the Holy Scriptures.
Blessings!
Walter
Eternal Security?
Introduction
Copyright � Tim Warner - 03/2003
http://www.pfrs.org/osas/index.html
Many Christians today insist that once you are truly born again, you can never be lost, no matter what. There are three common terms used to describe this view. Probably the best known is "OSAS" ("once saved always saved"). Another term is "eternal security." But, the term best liked by Calvinists is "perseverance of the saints."
Few Evangelical and Fundamental Christians realize that OSAS is the minority view in Christianity today. It is held almost exclusively by Presbyterians, Baptists, and some non-denominational groups with roots in one of these two denominations. OSAS is rejected by the majority of Christians. But, what may come as a bigger shock is that OSAS is a new doctrine unheard of prior to John Calvin. For the first 1500 years of Christianity, Christians believed it was possible for true believers to fall away and be lost forever if they did not persevere in their faith unto the end. In the words of John Wesley: "whatever is true is not new; whatever is new is not true."
The Orthodox View from the Early Church to Luther
The earliest Christians taught that perseverance was not guarenteed, and that many true Christians would not finish the race, and would be lost. Intense persecution in the early Church brought this issue to the fore. Some were faithful even to martyrdom, and others forsook the Faith when faced with death or torture. The following quote from Irenaeus (early 2nd cent.) illustrates the early Christian view immediately following the time of the Apostles.
"And to as many as continue in their love towards God, does He grant communion with Him. But communion with God is life and light, and the enjoyment of all the benefits which He has in store. But on as many as, according to their own choice, depart from God. He inflicts that separation from Himself which they have chosen of their own accord. But separation from God is death, and separation from light is darkness; and separation from God consists in the loss of all the benefits which He has in store. Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light. It is not, [however], that the light has inflicted upon them the penalty of blindness, but it is that the blindness itself has brought calamity upon them: and therefore the Lord declared, �He that believeth in Me is not condemned,� that is, is not separated from God, for he is united to God through faith. On the other hand, He says, �He that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God;� that is, he separated himself from God of his own accord. �For this is the condemnation, that light is come into this world, and men have loved darkness rather than light. For every one who doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that he has wrought them in God.�" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, XXVII, 2)
While predestination was taught beginning with St. Augustine in the 5th century, even Augustine believed that perseverance was not guarenteed to all believers. He taught that one could not know for sure whether he had the "gift of perseverance" until his death. Augustine taught that true Christians should pray continually that God would grant them the grace to persevere unto the end, and that some true Christians would NOT persevere and would be lost. Here are two excerpts from St. Augustine's treatise "On the Gift of Perseverance."
"I have now to consider the subject of perseverance with greater care; for in the former book also I said some things on this subject when I was discussing the beginning of faith. I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said. How, then, should he be said to have received or to have had perseverance who has not persevered? For if any one have continence, and fall away from that virtue and become incontinent, - or, in like manner, if he have righteousness, if patience, if even faith, and fall away, he is rightly said to have had these virtues and to have them no longer; for he was continent, or he was righteous, or he was patient, or he was believing, as long as he was so; but when he ceased to be so, he no longer is what he was. But how should he who Has not persevered have ever been persevering, since it is only by persevering that any one shows himself persevering, - and this he has not done? But lest any one should object to this, and say, If from the time at which any one became a believer he has lived - for the sake of argument - ten years, and in the midst of them has fallen from the faith, has he not persevered for five years? I am not contending about words. If it be thought that this also should be called perseverance, as it were for so long as it lasts, assuredly he is not to be said to have had in any degree that perseverance of which we are now discoursing, by which one perseveres in Christ even to the end. And the believer of one year, or of a period as much shorter as may be conceived of, if he has lived faithfully until he died, has rather had this perseverance than the believer of many years� standing, if a little time before his death he has fallen away from the steadfastness of his faith."
"But, on the other hand, �of his own will a man forsakes God, so as to be deservedly forsaken by God.� Who would deny this? But it is for that reason we ask not to be led into temptation, so that this may not happen. And if we are heard, certainly it does not happen, because God does not allow it to happen. For nothing comes to pass except what either He Himself does, or Himself allows to be done. Therefore He is powerful both to turn wills from evil to good, and to convert those that are inclined to fall, or to direct them into a way pleasing to Himself. For to Him it is not said in vain, �O God, Thou shalt turn again and quicken us;� it is not vainly said, �Give not my foot to be moved;� it is not vainly said, �Give me not over, O Lord, from my desire to the sinner;� finally, not to mention many passages, since probably more may occur to you, it is not vainly said, �Lead us not into temptation.� For whoever is not led into temptation, certainly is not led into the temptation of his own evil will; and he who is not led into the temptation of his own evil will, is absolutely led into no temptation. For �every one is tempted,� as it is written, �when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed;� �but God tempteth no man,� - that is to say, with a hurtful temptation. For temptation is moreover beneficial by which we are not deceived or overwhelmed, but proved, according to that which is said, �Prove me, O Lord, and try me.� Therefore, with that hurtful temptation which the apostle signifies when he says, �Lost by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labor be in vain,� �God tempteth no man,� as I have said, - that is, He brings or leads no one into temptation. For to be tempted and not to be led into temptation is not evil, - nay, it is even good; for this it is to be proved. When, therefore, we say to God, �Lead us not into temptation,� what do we say but, �Permit us not to be led�? Whence some pray in this manner, and it is read in many codices, and the most blessed Cyprian thus uses it: �Do not suffer us to be led into temptation.� In the Greek gospel, however, I have never found it otherwise than, �Lead us not into temptation.� We live, therefore, more securely if we give up the whole to God, and do not entrust ourselves partly to Him and partly to ourselves, as that venerable martyr saw. For when he would expound the same clause of the prayer, he says among other things, �But when we ask that we may not come into temptation, we are reminded of our infirmity and weakness while we thus ask, lest any should insolently vaunt himself, - lest any should proudly and arrogantly assume anything to himself, - lest any should take to himself the glory either of confession or suffering as his own; since the Lord Himself, teaching humility, said, �Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation; the Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.� So that when a humble and submissive confession comes first and all is attributed to God, whatever is sought for suppliantly, with the fear of God, may be granted by His own loving-kindness.�" (Augustine, On the Gift of Perseverance, Ch. I, XII)
In essence, Augustine taught that true Christians ought to pray always for the grace to persevere, and that only when he finished his life, having been faithful unto death, could it be known that he would persevere. Perseverance was something entirely separate from true regeneration by the Spirit. Even truely born-again Christians might not persevere, and could be lost, in Augustine's theology. Consequently, not all born-again Christians will ultimately make up the "elect." That true Christians could fall away and be eternally lost was the universal view of Christian writers prior to Calvin.
Even Martin Luther, who is claimed by Calvinists as one of their own, acknowledged the possibility of a Christian falling away into unbelief. Here are a few quotes, beginning with Luther's comment on the statement of the Lord's prayer, "lead us not into temptation."
"We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations. ... Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God to tear us away from faith, hope, and love and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil. Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation. This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them." (Martin Luther, Large Catechism XII, On the Lord's Prayer, 6th Petition).
"Through baptism these people threw out unbelief, had their unclean way of life washed away, and entered into a pure life of faith and love. Now they fall away into unbelief" (Martin Luther, Commentary on 2 Peter 2:22).
"Verse 4, "Ye are fallen from grace." That means you are no longer in the kingdom or condition of grace. When a person on board ship falls into the sea and is drowned it makes no difference from which end or side of the ship he falls into the water. Those who fall from grace perish no matter how they go about it. ... The words, "Ye are fallen from grace," must not be taken lightly. They are important. To fall from grace means to lose the atonement, the forgiveness of sins, the righteousness, liberty, and life which Jesus has merited for us by His death and resurrection. To lose the grace of God means to gain the wrath and judgment of God, death, the bondage of the devil, and everlasting condemnation." (Martin Luther, Commentary on Galatians, 5:4).
Calvinism
After the Reformation, John Calvin further developed Augustine's theology of predestination, and added "perseverance of the saints" as one of his five pillars of "Calvinism." In Calvinism, all those who are drawn of the Spirit will be saved, and will persevere unto the end. Man simply has no choice in the matter. In Calvinist thinking, God determines who will be saved and who will be lost. Ultimately, man's choice or "free will" is just an illusion. He really has no independant choice in the matter at all. If God elects certain people to be saved, and pre-determines their eternal destiny, the thought of someone "falling away" from the faith is preposterous. They simply have no choice in the matter.
Baptists & Eternal Security
Baptists and some non-denominational churches, who are not Calvinistic in general, hold to the fifth point of Calvinism, which they call "eternal security." In essence, they teach that man has a "free will" UNTIL he accepts Christ and becomes a Christian. From that point on he has no choice in the matter.
The Roman Catholic Church strongly opposes OSAS, both the Calvinistic form and the Baptist form. In fact, the RCC teaches that you are not fully "saved" until you get to heaven. They believe that salvation is a lifelong process, and that in this life, Christians can never really be sure they are saved. Integral in this line of thinking, is that one must perform good works and lead a holy life to help ensure their salvation. Also, certain sins are said to be serious enough to forfeit one's salvation.
Because of the apparent connection between "works" and maintaining one's salvation in RCC thinking, Baptists and Calvinists have assumed that anyone who believes a Christian can depart from God and be lost is teaching a works-based salvation message. However, this assumption is wrong as we shall see in the following articles.
The Biblical View
Let me say at the outset, that I believe the RCC doctrine of salvation by faith plus works is a false gospel that cannot save anyone. I am convinced the Scriptures teach salvation is by God's grace, not by our own merits. It is a free gift offered to all who believe. Salvation is gained by faith alone, and works have no part whatever in our being saved, or in maintaining our salvation.
Now, some might assume this means one can never depart from God. But this is not true. Many passages indicate true Christians can be lost. How? Through UNBELIEF. One must believe the gospel in order to be saved, and one must continue to believe the gospel to continue "in Christ." It is as simple as that. Works don't play any part in initial "believing," nor do they play a part in your continued "believing." It is initially by faith, and it continues to be by faith throughout the Christian life.
All of this is taught explicitly in Scripture. In the following series of articles, we will display the evidence for you to judge. OSAS may have some Scriptures that seem to support it. But, there are many Scriptures for which it simply cannot account. Likewise, the RCC might have a couple of verses from James that seem to support their teaching, but there are several Scriptures that flatly contradict their teaching regarding salvation. The truth can be found only by harmonising all of the Scriptures on this topic. The view presented in these articles fully preserves the idea of salvation by grace through faith, not by works. It also integrates the many warnings in Scripture against departing from God.
Salvation by grace through faith alone is at the heart of the Gospel message. While eternal life is a free gift of God's grace, it is applied to the individual by faith. Man cannot in any way save himself, but he can access the grace of God by simply choosing to accept the offer of salvation through the blood of Christ, when he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. It is through the exercise of the will that he responds to God by faith. Faith is simply believing what God has said, and resting in that promise. A person who is saved by God's grace through exercising faith continues to believe the Gospel throughout his Christian life. It takes no effort on our part to believe. We simply respond and surrender to the drawing of the Spirit. In fact, true faith is resting in God's promise, not clinging to it by works of our own merit. It is obvious then, that continuing to maintain one's faith throughout life requires no effort, but a continued resting in the finished work of Christ. Make no mistake. The warnings in God's Word are real. For example, in John 15:1-7, Jesus repeatedly warned the disciples to continue "in Christ." For those who do not heed the warnings, the result is to be "burned." Many other passages include similar warnings. The early Church held this view. "For when the soul that is united with Christ forsakes its faith, it is given over to perpetual death, viz., eternal punishment." (Hippolytus, On Daniel, vi). We come to God by faith, but it is through unbelief that one departs from God. By maintaining faith we persevere to the end. But, through unbelief we can depart from God and be eternally damned. Jesus taught that in the last days many would abandon the faith. Paul called this the "falling away." We need to be aware of the Scriptural teaching regarding our security in Christ, because the danger of apostasy is real.
Matt 24:9-13
9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name.
10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.
12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love (agape) will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
Oops....when I say "willing sin" I mean sin that you know is sin but that you aren't sorry for. Willful disobedience without seeking forgiveness. Same goes for unbelief, it has to be a conscious thought to reject God's truth. Not something you "do" out of habit/without thinking and then think later..."...shouldn't have done that...please forgive me". God will forgive you for sin, and I know we all sin every day...I definitely know...and I'm sorry...very sorry. Thank God for grace.:prayingm:
Walter, too bad you wouldn't transfer your beliefs to scripture instead of putting your faith in the writings of men.
Speaking for myself I put all my trust in God's word since he was intelligent enough to create man, I figure he should be much wiser then men in explaining his will and plan for us is.
Colossians 2:8 �Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2 Timothy 2:15 �Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
1 Corinthians 2:13 �Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Walter, if you would heed God's instrucitions and study to show yourselve aproved by comparing scripture with scripture as shown above instead of the wisdom of men then you will have God's truth. You have to take God literly instead of twisting it with intepertation. If you are saved, then the Holy Spirit will teach you if you let Him.
2 Peter 1:20 �Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
It is very presumptuous of you to assert that I place my trust in men....oh the contrary. I place my trust in Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide me into His truth. I adhere to the clear teachings of scriptures properly exegeted with consistent application of Hermeneutics.
I have presented information is several articles demonstrating the HISTORICAL positions of the Early Church. Some of these men were the direct Disciples of John and Paul the Apostles. I am sorry that you have not been able to grasp the significance of the "historical" proof as to what beliefs were the consistent teachings of the Early Church; "ANTE-NICENE"; and what teachings can be demonstrated to be "NEW" and not Orthodox as in the most ancient in Christianity. The concepts, ideas and theological beliefs of Calvinism certainly cannot be traced prior to St. Augustin and the "Once Saved Always Saved" theological heresy cannot be traced prior to Calvin's invention of Perseverance of the Saints in 1500s AD. That my friend is an historical fact in Church history.
I think the matter can be made less controversial if we make everything as simple as possible. This is how I understand it, at least at the moment; the asterisks mark assumptions, and tildes mark deductions:
*If you love God, you obey his commands. (1Jo 5:3)
*I don't always obey his commands. (Mar 10:18)
~I don't always love God.
*If you are saved, you love God. (Luk 7:36-47)
~I am not always saved.
I generally believe in the conclusion, but I find a weak point in the last assumption which gives me some solace: the verses only support it if you assume that you react in a logical, sane manner to the gift of salvation. Everyone loves him right after being saved, but as the years pass, you can become ungrateful, and then you will love less and less.
Good answer Steve, thank god we have a loving parent in heaven who chaises us when we continue in sin.
Any parent who would disown their child because of disobedience in a lousy parent. If anyone thinks the parent we have in heave will cast us out doesn't know Christ or his love for those that are his.
Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
dear man, i agree with you for the most part.. it is that i believe that one can choose to loose it. by doing the opposite of what got them saved to begin with.. if you are saved one way then to me you stay saved the same way..
but if you do the opposite and disbelieve and loose your faith and deny JESUS then yea to me you could loose it then..
if a person is saved and later decides to become an atheist then do ya really think they are still saved? i dont.
but lets just say for instance that happenchance you are totally right and there is no way you can loose it.. wouldnt you rathe see folks live their life as if they could? dont you think theyd live their life a little better? i know i would.
First of all guys,I just want to say...I really enjoy these discussions,wether we agree or not,at least we are talking about the only thing that really matters in this whole universe!Jesus Christ!
Second,I do see your point cattle,and Mark...live like you could lose it might not be a bad motto...except,I wouldnt want my daughter walking around thinking if she broke too many of my rules that I would disown her.
thats not love,or at least not unconditional love.wich is what I beleive Christ has for his people
yes we want our children to have some fear that if they break our rules they will be punished,but what we really want is for them to follow our rules because they love us,want to please us,have a great relationship with us,and eventually see that following our rules is the best thing for everyone!
If we never get past the fear thing,well Mark that would be my definition of a robot.
If i obeyed god just out of fear of losing my salvation,well I dont think I would want it at all,what good would it be to have children who only obeyed you because they were afraid of losing something,They would turn on you if they ever got the chance,thats not love
Its not a question of being forced,its a question of being enlightened,spiritually awakened,BORN AGAIN...
we were dead in trespasses and sins,made alive in Christ........yes to do good works....but only after we are made alive....we dont want god when we were spiritually dead,we may have wanted immortality,but not under gods rule,under our own.Dont you see,this is the only way he could have done it,to demonstrate his great love for his people.
