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limited atonement
Posted : 18 Oct, 2009 08:01 AM

Election itself saved no one; it only

marked out particular sinners for salvation. Those chosen by the

Father and given to the Son had to be redeemed if they were to be

saved. In order to SECURE their redemption, Jesus Christ came into

the world and took upon himself human nature so that He might

identify Himself with His people and act as their legal

representative or substitute. Christ, acting on behalf of his

people, perfectly kept God's law and thereby worked out a perfect

righteousness which is IMPUTED TO THEM THE MOMENT THEY ARE BROUGHT TO

FAITH IN HIM. Through what He did, they are constituted righteous

before God. They are also freed from all guilt and condemnation as

the result of what Christ suffered for them.

All Calvinists agree that Christ's obedience and suffering were of

infinite value, and that if God had so willed, the satisfaction

rendered by Christ would have saved every member of the human race.

But he came into this world to represent and save only those given to

Him by the Father.

The Arminians also place a limitation on the atoning work of Christ.

but one of a much different nature. They hold that Christ's saving

work was designed to make possible the salvation of all men on the

condition that they believe, but that Christ's death IN ITSELF did

not actually secure of guarantee salvation for anyone.

Since all men will not be saved, a limitation must be admitted.

Calvinists say the Christ's death was all powerful but it was limited

to the elect, and Arminians say it was intended for everyone, but it

only made it POSSIBLE for God to pardon sinners, on the condition

that they believe.



For the Calvinist, the atonement "is like a narrow bridge that goes

all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great

wide bridge that goes only half-way across."

I heard a preacher once say "God casts a vote for you, the Devil

casts a vote against you, and you cast the deciding vote!"

As a Calvinist I would say something like, "This is God's universe,

He is merciful and loving, repent and trust in Jesus, and the Devil

is on a short leash and has no say in your salvation!"



A. The Scriptures describe the end intended and accomplished by

Christ's work as the full salvation of His people.



1. The Scriptures state that Christ came, not to enable men

to save themselves but to SAVE sinners.



Matthew 1:21: "...She will bear a son, and you shall call his name

Jesus, for he will SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins. '



Luke 19:10: "For the Son of man came to seek and to SAVE that which

is lost."



Galations 1:3,4: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our

Lord Jesus Christ, WHO GAVE HIMSELF for our sins TO DELIVER US from

the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.



1 timothy 1:15: The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance,

that Christ Jesus came into the world to SAVE SINNERS and I am the

foremost of sinners.



Titus 2:14:...who GAVE HIMSELF for us to REDEEM US from all iniquity

and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for

good deeds.



1 Peter 3:18: For Christ also died for sins once for all, the

righteous for the unrighteous, THAT HE MIGHT BRING US TO GOD, being

put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.



see also: 2 Cor. 5:21



2. The Scriptures declare that, as the result of what Christ did and

suffered, His people are reconciled to God, justified, and given the

Holy Spirit who regenerates and sanctifies them. All these blessing

were SECURED by Christ Himself for His people.



A. Christ, by His redeeming work, SECURED RECONCILIATION for His

people.



Romans 5:10: For if while we were enemies we were RECONCILED TO GOD

BY THE DEATH OF HIS SON, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall

we be saved by his life.



Ephesians 2:15,16: ...by abolishing in his flesh the law of

commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself on e new

man in place of the two, so making peace, and MIGHT RECONCILE US both

to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility

to an end.



Colossians 1:21,22: And you, who once were estranged and hostile in

mind, doing evil deeds, HE HAS NOW RECONCILED in his body of flesh by

his death, IN ORDER TO present you holy and blameless and

irreproachable before him.



see also:2 Cor. 5:18,19



B. Christ secured the righteousness and pardon needed by His people

for their JUSTIFICATION.





Romans 3:24,25:...they are JUSTIFIED by his grace as a gift, THROUGH

THE REDEMPTION WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS, whom God put forward as an

expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show

God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed

over former sins.



Romans 5:8,9: But God shows his love for us in that WHILE WE WERE

YET SINNERS CHRIST DIED FOR US. Since, therefore, we are now

JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, much more shall we be saved by him from the

wrath of God.



Hebrews 9:12:...he entered once and for all into the Holy Place,

taking not the blood of goats and calves but HIS OWN BLOOD, THUS

SECURING AN ETERNAL REDEMPTION.



1 Peter 2:24: He himself BORE OUR SINS in his body on the tree, that

we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

BY HIS WOUNDS YOU HAVE BEEN HEALED.



see also: 1 Cor. 1:30; Colossians 1:13,14





C. Christ secured the gift of the Spirit which includes REGENERATION

and SANCTIFICATION and all that is involved in them.



Ephesians 1:3,4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus

Christ, who has blessed us in Christ WITH EVERY SPIRITUAL BLESSING

in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the

foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before

him.



Titus 3:5,6:....he saved us, not because of of deeds done by us in

righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of

REGENERATION and RENEWAL in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out

upon us richly THROUGH Jesus Christ our Savior.



Hebrews 13:12: So Jesus also suffered outside the gate IN ORDER TO

SANCTIFY the people through his own blood.



see also: 1 John 1:7; Heb. 9:14; 1 Cor. 1:30; Acts 5:31

Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 5:25,26



B. Passages which represent the Lord Jesus Christ, in all that he did

and suffered for His people, as fulfilling the terms of a gracious

compact or arrangement which He had entered into with His heavenly

Father before the foundation of the world.



John 6:35-40: Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who

comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never

thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not

believe. ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES ME WILL COME TO ME; and him who

comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven,

not to do my own will, but THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME; and this is

the will of him who sent me, THAT I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING OF ALL THAT

HE HAS GIVEN ME, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the

will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in

him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last

day."



2. Jesus, the good shepherd, lays down his life for his sheep.

All who are "His sheep" are brought by Him into the fold and are made

to hear His voice and follow Him. Notice that the Father had given

the sheep to Christ!



John 10: 11,14-18: I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays

down his life for THE SHEEP...I am the good shepherd; I KNOW MY OWN

and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and

I lay down my life for THE SHEEP. And I have OTHER SHEEP, that are

not of this fold; I MUST BRING THEM ALSO, and they WILL heed my

voice.......THIS CHARGE I HAVE RECEIVED FROM MY FATHER."



John 10: 24-29: [the unbelieving Jews demanded of Him] "If you are

the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and

you do not believe. The works that I do in my Fathers name, they

bear witness to me; but you do not believe, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELONG

TO MY SHEEP. MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE, AND I KNOW THEM AND THEY

FOLLOW ME;AND I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH,

AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. MY FATHER, WHO HAS

GIVEN THEM TO ME, IS GREATER THAN ALL, AND NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH

THEM OUT OF THE FATHER'S HAND.



See also: John 17: 1-11, 20, 24-26





Those who say you can lose your salvation are contradicting what the

Bible says. If you are trusting in Christ,you are secure and can

KNOW that you are his,and NOTHING can snatch you from God's hand.



In Christ



Steve

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limited atonement
Posted : 19 Oct, 2009 01:11 PM

Dr. R.C. Sproul �







ANOTHER difficult question that shrouds the doctrine of predestination is the question of how our sinful nature can be inherited from Adam. If we are born with a fallen nature, if we are born in sin, if we are born in a state of moral inability, how can God hold us responsible for our sins?



We remember that original sin does not refer to the first sin but to the result of that first sin. The Scriptures speak repeatedly of sin and death entering the world through �one man�s transgression.� As a result of Adam�s sin, all men are now sinners. The Fall was great. It had radical repercussions for the entire human race.



There have been many attempts to explain the relationship of Adam�s fall to the rest of mankind. Some of the theories presented are quite complex and imaginative. Three theories, however, have emerged from the list as the most widely accepted. The first of these I will call the Myth Theory of the Fall.



THE MYTH THEORY OF THE FALL



The myth theory of the Fall, as the name suggests, holds that there was no factual, historical fall. Adam and Eve are not considered historical persons. They are mythological symbols drawn to explain or represent the problem of man�s corruption. The story of the Fall in the Bible is a kind of parable; it teaches a moral lesson.



According to this theory the first few chapters of Genesis are mythological. There never was an Adam; there never was an Eve. The very structure of the story suggests parable or myth because it includes such elements as a talking serpent and such obviously symbolic objects as the tree of knowledge of good and evil.



The moral truth communicated by the myth is that people fall into sin. Sin is a universal problem. Everyone commits sin; no one is perfect. The myth points to a higher reality: Everyone is his own Adam. Every person has his own private fall. Sin is a universal human condition precisely because every person succumbs to his own private temptation.



The attractive elements of this theory are important. In the first place, this view absolves God entirely of any responsibility for holding future generations of people responsible for what one couple did. Here, no one can blame their parents or their Creator for their own sin. In this scheme, my fallenness is a direct result of my own fall, not of someone else�s.



A second advantage of this view is that it escapes all need to defend the historical character of the beginning chapters of the Bible. This view suffers no anxiety from certain theories of evolution or from scientific disputes about the nature of creation. The factual truth of a myth never needs to be defended.



The disadvantages of this view, however, are more serious. Its most crucial failing is that it actually offers nothing by way of explanation for the universality of sin. If each one of us is born without a sinful nature, how account for the universality of sin? If four billion people were born with no inclination to sin, with no corruption to their nature, we would reasonably expect that at least some of them would refrain from falling. If our natural moral state is one of innocent neutrality, we would statistically expect that half of the human race would remain perfect. I grant that to� account for one innocent person�s fall presents an enormous intellectual problem. But when we compound that difficulty by the billions of people who have fallen, the problem becomes several billion times more difficult. We also grant that if one person created in the image of God could fall, then it is indeed possible that billions can likewise fall. It is the statistical probability here that is so astonishing. When we think of one person falling, that is one thing. But if everybody does it, without exception, then we begin to wonder why. We begin to wonder if man�s natural state is all that neutral.



The standard reply of the advocates of the myth view is that people are not universally born in an idyllic environment like Eden. Society is corrupt. We are born into a corrupt environment We are like Rousseau�s "innocent savage� who is corrupted by the negative influences of civilization.



This explanation begs the question. How did society or civilization get corrupt in the first place? If everyone is born innocent, without a trace of personal corruption, we would expect to find societies that are no more than half corrupt. If birds of a feather flock together, we might find societies where all the corrupt people band together and other societies where no evil is present. Society cannot be a corrupting influence until it first becomes corrupt itself. To explain the fall of an entire society or civilization, one must face the difficulties we have already pointed out.



In another one of Jonathan Edwards�s famous works, his treatise on original sin, he makes the important observation that because the sin of man is universal, even if the Bible said nothing about an original Fall of the human race, reason would demand such an explanation. Nothing screams more loudly about the fact that we are born in a state of corruption than the fact that we all sin.



Another thorny question that arises concerns the relationship of sin and death. The Bible makes it clear that death is not �natural� to man. That is, death is repeatedly said to have come into the world as a result of sin. If that is so, how do we account for the death of infants? If all men are born innocent, with no innate corruption, God would be unjust to allow as yet unfallen babies to die.



The mythological view of the Fall must also face the fact that it does radical violence to the teaching of Scripture. The view does more than merely interpret the opening chapters of the Bible as non-factual. In so doing the view sets itself in clear opposition to the New Testament view of the Fall. It would take intellectual gymnastics of the most severe sort to argue that the Apostle Paul did not teach a historical Fall. The parallels that he draws between the first Adam and the second Adam are too strong to allow this, unless we argue that in Paul�s mind Jesus was also a mythological character.



We grant that the Genesis account of the Fall has some unusual literary elements in it. The presence of a tree that does not follow the pattern of normal trees follows certain images of poetry. It is proper to interpret poetry as poetry and not as historical narrative. On the other hand, there are strong elements of historical narrative literature in Genesis 3. The setting of Eden is located in chapter 2 in the midst of four riverheads, including Pishon, Gihon, Hiddekel (or Tigris), and Euphrates.



We know that parables can be set in real historical settings. For example, the parable of the Good Samaritan is set in the geographical context of the road to Jericho. Therefore the mere presence of real historical rivers does not absolutely demand that we identify this section of Genesis �as historical narrative.



There is another element of the text, however, that is more compelling. The account of Adam and Eve contains a significant genealogy. The Romans, with their penchant for mythology may have no difficulty tracing their lineage to Romulus and Remus, but the Jews were surely more scrupulous about such matters. The Jews had a strong commitment to real history. In light of the vast difference between the Jewish view of history and the Greek view of history, it is unthinkable that Jewish people would include mythological characters in their own genealogies. In Jewish writing, the presence of genealogy indicates historical narrative. Note that the New Testament historian, Luke, includes Adam in the genealogy of Jesus.



It is much easier to account for a real tree serving as a focal point of a moral test and thereby being called a tree of the knowledge of good and evil than it is to accommodate genealogy to a parable or a myth. This of course could be done if other factors demanded it. But no such factors exist. There is no sound reason why we should not interpret Genesis 3 as historical narrative and multiple reasons why we should not treat it as parable or myth. To treat it as history is to treat it as the Jews did, including Paul and Jesus. To treat it otherwise is usually motivated by some contemporary agenda that has nothing to do with Jewish history.



THE REALIST VIEW OF THE FALL



Remember the famous television series from the 1950s called �You Are There�? It took viewers, through the magic of television, to famous historical scenes. But in fact no electronic device has yet been invented to transport us back in time, H. G. Wells notwithstanding. We live in the present. Our only access to the past is through books, artifacts of archaeology, and the memories of ourselves and of others.



I remember teaching a course on the Bible that involved a brief study of Roman soldiers. I mentioned the Roman standard that carried the initials SPQR. I asked if anyone knew what those letters stood for. A dear friend who was in his seventies piped up, �Senatus Populus Que Romanus, �The senate and the people of Rome.�� I smiled at my friend and said, �You are the only person in this room old enough to remember!�



None of us is old enough to carry memory images of the fall of Adam. Or are we? The realist view of the Fall contends that we are all old enough to remember the Fall. We should be able to remember it because we were really there.



Realism is not an exercise in a Bridey-Murphy kind of reincarnation. Rather, realism is a serious attempt to answer the problem of the Fall. The key concept is this: We cannot morally be held accountable for a sin committed by someone else. To be accountable we must have been actively involved somehow in the sin itself. Somehow we must have been present at the Fall. Really present. Hence the name Realism.



The realist view of the Fall demands some kind of concept of the preexistence of the human soul. That is, before we were born, our souls must have already existed. They were present with Adam at the Fall. They fell along with Adam. Adam�s sin was not merely an act for us; it was an act with us. We were there.



This theory seems speculative, perhaps even bizarre. Its advocates, however, appeal to two pivotal biblical texts as warrant for this view. The first is found in Ezekiel 18:2-4:



What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:



�The fathers have eaten sour grapes,

and the children �s teeth are set on edge?�



As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

Behold, all souls are Mine;

The soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine;

The soul who sins shall die.



Later in this chapter, Ezekiel writes:



Yet you say, �Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?� Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.



The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. (Ezekiel 18:19, 20).



Here the realist finds a definitive text for his case. God clearly declares that the son is not held guilty for the sins of his father. This would seem to pose serious difficulties for the whole idea of people falling �in Adam.�



The second pivotal text for realism is found in the New Testament Book of Hebrews:



Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him (Hebrews 7:9, 10).



This text is part of a lengthy treatment by the author of Hebrews concerning the role of Christ as our Great High Priest. The New Testament declares that Jesus is both our king and our priest. It labors the fact that Jesus was from the line of Judah, to whom the royal kingdom was promised. Jesus was a son of David, who also was of the line of Judah.



The priesthood of the Old Testament was not given to Judah, but to the sons of Levi. The Levites were the priestly line. We normally speak, therefore, of the Levitical priesthood or the Aaronic priesthood. Aaron was a Levite. If this is so, how could Jesus be a priest if he was not from the line of Levi?



This problem vexed some ancient Jews. The author of Hebrews argues that there was another priesthood mentioned in the Old Testament, the priesthood of the mysterious figure named Melchizedek. Jesus is said to be a priest of the order of Melchizedek.



This lengthy portion of Hebrews is not satisfied, however, merely to prove that there was another priesthood in the Old Testament besides the Levitical priesthood. The major point of the argument here is that the priesthood of Melchizedek was superior to the priesthood of Levi.



The author of Hebrews rehearses a bit of Old Testament history to prove his point. He calls attention to the fact that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, not Melchizedek to Abraham. Melchizedek also blessed Abraham; Abraham did not bless Melchizedek. The point is this: In the relationship between Abraham and Melchizedek it was Melchizedek who served as the priest, not Abraham.



The key thought to the Jew is cited in verse 7: �Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better.�



The author of Hebrews continues to weave the thread of his argument. He argues that, in effect, the father is superior to the son. That means that Abraham is ahead of Isaac in the patriarchal pecking order. In turn, Isaac is ahead of Jacob, and Jacob ahead of his sons, including his son Levi. If we carry this out, it means that Abraham is greater than his great-grandson Levi.



Now if Abraham is greater than Levi and Abraham subordinated himself to Melchizedek, then it means that the priest Melchizedek is greater than Levi and the entire line of Levi. The conclusion is clear. The priesthood of Melchizedek is a higher order of priesthood than the Levitical priesthood. This gives supreme dignity to the high priestly office of Christ.



It was not the chief concern of the author of Hebrews to explain the mystery of the fall of Adam with all this. Yet he says something along the way that the realists jump on to prove their theory. He writes that �Levi paid tithes through Abraham.� Levi did this while he was �still in the loins of his father.�



The realists see this reference to Levi doing something before he was even born as biblical proof for the concept of the preexistence of the human soul. If Levi could pay tithes while he was still in the loins of his father, that must mean that Levi in some sense already existed.



This treatment of this passage of Hebrews begs the question. The text does not explicitly teach that Levi really existed or preexisted in the loins of his father. The text itself calls it a �manner of speaking.� The text does not demand that we leap to the conclusion that Levi �really� preexisted. The realists come to this text armed with a theory they did not find from the text and then read the theory into the text.



The argument from the text of Ezekiel also misses the point. Ezekiel was not giving a discourse on the fall of Adam. The Fall is not in view here. Rather, Ezekiel is addressing the commonplace excuse that men use for their sins. They try to blame someone else for their own misdeeds. That human activity has gone on since the Fall, but that is about all this passage has to do with the Fall. In the Fall Eve blamed the serpent, and Adam blamed both God and Eve for his own sin. He said, �The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate� (Gen. 3:12).



Ever since, men have tried to pass the buck of their own guilt. Still, the realists argue, a principle is set forth in Ezekiel 18 that has bearing on the matter. The principle is that men are not held accountable for other people�s sins.



To be sure, that general principle is set forth in Ezekiel. It is a grand principle of God�s justice. Yet we dare not make it an absolute principle. If we do, then the text of Ezekiel would prove too much. It would prove away the atonement of Christ. If it is never possible for one person to be punished for the sins of another, then we have no Savior. Jesus was punished for our sins. That is the very essence of the gospel. Not only was Jesus punished for our sins, but his righteousness is the meritorious basis for our justification. We are justified by an alien righteousness, a righteousness that is not our own. If we press Ezekiel�s statement to the absolute limit when we read, �The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself,� then we are left as sinners who must justify themselves. That puts us all in deep weeds.



To be sure, the Bible speaks of God�s �visiting� the iniquities of persons on the third and fourth generations. This refers to the �fallout� or consequences of sin. A child may suffer from the consequences of his father�s sin, but God does not hold him responsible for his father�s sin.



The principle of Ezekiel allows for two exceptions: the Cross, and the Fall. Somehow we don�t mind the exception of the Cross. It is the Fall that rankles us. We don�t mind having our guilt transferred to Jesus or having his righteousness transferred to us; it is having the guilt of Adam transferred to us that makes us howl. We argue that if the guilt of Adam had never been transmitted to us then the work of Jesus would never have been necessary.



THE FEDERAL OR REPRESENTATIVE VIEW OF THE FALL



For the most part, the federal view of the Fall has been the most popular among advocates of the Reformed view of predestination. This view teaches that Adam acted as a representative of the entire human race. With the test that God set before Adam and Eve, he was testing the whole of mankind. Adam�s name means �man� or �mankind.� Adam was the first human being created. He stands at the head of the human race. He was placed in the garden to act not only for himself but for all of his future descendents. Just as a federal government has a chief spokesman who is the head of the nation, so Adam was the federal head of mankind.



The chief idea of federalism is that, when Adam sinned, he sinned for all of us. His fall was our fall. When God punished Adam by taking away his original righteousness, we were all likewise punished. The curse of the Fall affects us all. Not only was Adam destined to make his living by the sweat of his brow, but that is true for us as well. Not only was Eve consigned to have pain in childbirth, but that has been true for women of all human generations. The offending serpent in the garden was not the only member of his species who was cursed to crawl on his belly.



When they were created, Adam and Eve were given dominion over the entire creation. As a result of their sin the whole world suffered. Paul tells us:



For the creation was subjected to futility not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now (Romans 8:20-22).



The whole creation groans as it awaits the full redemption of man. When man sinned, the repercussions of the sin were felt throughout the whole range of man�s domain. Because of Adam�s sin, not only do we suffer, but lions, elephants, butterflies, and puppy dogs also suffer. They did not ask for such suffering. They were hurt by the fall of their master.



That we suffer as a result of Adam�s sin is explicitly taught in the New Testament. In Romans 5, for example, Paul makes the following observations:



�Through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin� (v. 12).

�By the one man�s offense many died� (v. 15).

�Through one man�s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation� (v. 18).

�By one man�s disobedience many were made sinners� (v. 19).



There is no way to avoid the obvious teaching of Scripture that Adam�s sin had dreadful consequences for his descendents. It is precisely because of the abundance of such biblical statements that virtually every Christian body has composed some doctrine of original sin linked to the fall of Adam.



We are still left with a big question. If God did in fact judge the entire human race in Adam, how is that fair? It seems manifestly unjust of God to allow not only all subsequent human beings but all of creation to suffer because of Adam.



It is the question of God�s fairness that federalism seeks to answer. Federalism assumes that we were in fact represented by Adam and that such representation was both fair and accurate. It holds that Adam perfectly represented us.



Within our own legal system we have situations that, not perfectly but approximately, parallel this concept of representation. We know that if I hire a man to kill someone and that hired gunman carries out the contract, I can justly be tried for first-degree murder in spite of the fact that I did not actually pull the trigger. I am judged to be guilty for a crime someone else committed because the other person acted in my place.



The obvious protest that arises at this point is, �But we did not hire Adam to sin in our behalf.� That is true. This example merely illustrates that there are some cases in which it is just to punish one person for the crime of another.



The federal view of the Fall still exudes a faint odor of tyranny. Our cry is, �No damnation without representation!� Just as people in a nation clamor for representatives to insure freedom from despotic tyranny, so we demand representation before God that is fair and just. The federal view states that we are judged guilty for Adam�s sin because he was our fair and just representative.



Wait a minute. Adam may have represented us, but we did not choose him. What if the fathers of the American republic had demanded representation from King George and the king replied, �Of course you may have representatives. You will be represented by my brother!� Such an answer would have spilled even more tea in Boston Harbor.



We want the right to select our own representatives. We want to be able to cast our own vote, not have somebody else cast that vote for us. The word vote comes from the Latin votum which meant �wish� or �choice.� When we cast our vote, we are expressing our wishes, setting forth our wills.



Suppose we would have had the total freedom to vote for our representative in Eden. Would that have satisfied us? And why do we want the right to vote for our representative? Why do we object if the king or any other sovereign wants to appoint our representatives for us? The answer is obvious. �We want to be sure that our will is being carried out. If the king appoints my representative, then I will have little confidence that my wishes will be accomplished. I would fear that the appointed representative would be more eager to carry out the wishes of the king than my wishes. I would not feel fairly represented.



But even if we have the right to choose our own representatives, we have no guarantee that our wishes will be carried out. Who among us has not been enticed by politicians who promise one thing during an election campaign and do another thing after they are elected? Again, the reason we want to select our own representative is so that we can be sure we are accurately represented.



At no time in all of human history have we been more accurately represented than in the Garden of Eden. To be sure, we did not choose our representative there. Our representative was chosen for us. The one who chose our representative, however, was not King George. It was almighty God.



When God chooses our representative, he does so perfectly. His choice is an infallible choice. When I choose my own representatives, I do so fallibly. Sometimes I select the wrong person and am then inaccurately represented. Adam represented me infallibly, not because he was infallible, but because God is infallible. Given God�s infallibility, I can never argue that Adam was a poor choice to represent me.



The assumption many of us make when we struggle with the Fall is that, had we been there, we would have made a different choice. We would not have made a decision that would plunge the world into ruin. Such an assumption is just not possible given the character of God. God doesn�t make mistakes. His choice of my representative is greater than my choice of my own.



Even if we grant that indeed we were perfectly represented by Adam, we still must ask if it is fair to be represented at all with such high stakes. I can only answer that it pleased the Lord to do this. We know that the world fell through Adam. We know that in some sense Adam represented us. We know that we did not choose him to be our representative. We know that God�s selection of Adam was an infallible selection. But was the whole process just?



I can only answer this question ultimately by asking another question � one the Apostle Paul asked. �Is there unrighteousness in God?� The apostolic answer to this rhetorical question is as plain as it is emphatic. �God forbid!�



If we know anything at all about the character of God, then we know that he is not a tyrant and that he is never unjust. His structure of the terms of mankind�s probation satisfied God�s own righteousness. That should be enough to satisfy us.



Yet we still quarrel. We still contend with the Almighty. We still assume that somehow God did us wrong and that we suffer as innocent victims of God�s judgment. Such sentiments only confirm the radical degree of our fallenness. When we think like this, we are thinking like Adam�s children. Such blasphemous thoughts only underline in red how accurately we were represented by Adam.



I am persuaded that the federal view of the Fall is substantially correct. It alone of the three we have examined does justice to the biblical teaching of the fall of man. It satisfies me that God is not an arbitrary tyrant. I know that I am a fallen creature. That is, I know that I am a creature and I know that I am fallen. I also know that it is not God�s �fault� that I am a sinner. What God has done for me is to redeem me from my sin. He has not redeemed me from his sin.



Though the federal representational view of the Fall is held by most Calvinists, we must remember that the question of our relationship to Adam�s fall is not a problem unique to Calvinism. All Christians must struggle with it.



It is also vital to see predestination in light of the Fall. All Christians agree that God�s decree of predestination was made before the Fall. Some argue that God first predestinated some people to salvation and others to damnation and then decreed the Fall to make sure that some folks would perish. Sometimes this dreadful view is even attributed to Calvinism. Such an idea was repugnant to Calvin and is equally repugnant to all orthodox Calvinists. The notion is sometimes called �hyper-Calvinism.� But even that is an insult. This view has nothing to do with Calvinism. Rather than hyper-Calvinism, it is anti-Calvinism.



Calvinism, along with other views of predestination, teaches that God�s decree was made both before the Fall, and in light of the Fall. Why is this important? Because the Calvinistic view of predestination always accents the gracious character of God�s redemption. When God predestines people to salvation he is predestinating people to be saved whom he knows really need to be saved. They need to be saved because they are sinners in Adam, not because he forced them to be sinners. Calvinism sees Adam sinning by his own free will, not by divine coercion.



To be sure, God knew before the Fall that there would most certainly be a Fall and he took action to redeem some. He ordained the Fall in the sense that he chose to allow it, but not in the sense that he chose to coerce it. His predestinating grace is gracious precisely because he chooses to save people whom he knows in advance will be spiritually dead.



One final illustration may be helpful here. We bristle at the idea that God calls us to be righteous when we are hampered by original sin. We say, �But God, we can�t be righteous. We are fallen creatures. How can you hold us accountable when you know very well we were born with original sin?�



The illustration is as follows. Suppose God said to a man, �I want you to trim these bushes by three o�clock this afternoon. But be careful. There is a large open pit at the edge of the garden. If you fall into that pit, you will �not be able to get yourself out. So whatever you do, stay away from that pit.�



Suppose that as soon as God leaves the garden the man runs over and jumps into the pit. At three o�clock God returns and finds the bushes untrimmed. He calls for the gardener and hears a faint cry from the edge of the garden. He walks to the edge of the pit and sees the gardener helplessly flailing around on the bottom. He says to the gardener, �Why haven�t you trimmed the bushes I told you to trim?� The gardener responds in anger, �How do you expect me to trim these bushes when I am trapped in this pit? If you hadn�t left this empty pit here, I would not be in this predicament.�



Adam jumped into the pit. In Adam we all jumped into the pit. God did not throw us into the pit. Adam was clearly warned about the pit. God told him to stay away. The consequences Adam experienced from being in the pit were a direct punishment for jumping into it.



So it is with original sin. Original sin is both the consequence of Adam�s sin and the punishment for Adam�s sin. We are born sinners because in Adam all fell. Even the word fall is a bit of a euphemism. It is a rose-colored view of the matter. The word fall suggests an accident of sorts. Adam�s sin was not an accident. He was not Humpty Dumpty. Adam didn�t simply slip into sin; he jumped into it with both feet. We jumped headlong with him. God didn�t push us. He didn�t trick us. He gave us adequate and fair warning. The fault is ours and only ours.



It is not that Adam ate sour grapes and our teeth are set on edge. The biblical teaching is that in Adam we all ate the sour grapes. That is why our teeth are set on edge.



In Christ



Steven

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Posted : 19 Oct, 2009 01:23 PM

Thank you for explaining that to me and this is the conclusion I have made; the only difference that I can see between Judaism and some Christian beliefs is who is the Messiah and what does the Messiah really mean.



According to the Torah, in order to receive forgiveness of sins there is a need for �ritual expiations� where blood is shed to make atonement for sin. However, with the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD, this becomes a serious problem; there is now no place for to make atonement for sin. Basically, after the destruction of the second temple it was necessary to develop a method for receiving forgiveness of sins without the ritual expiations or blood atonement which is prescribed according to G-d�s mitzvoth (commandments) in His Torah. So the concept was developed to teach the principle that repentance involves the resolve not to repeat offenses. Hosea 14:2-4, Take words with you, and return to ADONAI; say to him, "Forgive all guilt, and accept what is good; we will pay instead of bulls [the offerings of] our lips. Ashur will not save us, we will not ride on horses, and we will no longer call what we made with our hands our gods. For it is only in you that the fatherless can find mercy." "I will heal their disloyalty, I will love them freely; for my anger has turned from him. (CJB) The teaching is expanded upon saying G-d says to Israel: �My sons, I will not receive from you burnt-offerings nor sin offerings nor trespass offerings nor oblations; but I will have you propitiate me by prayer and supplication and by fixing your thoughts. Lest one should imagine that empty words suffice, we are taught, �For Thou art not a G-d that likes wickedness, evil cannot abide with thee� (Psalms 5:5); but with confession and with pleas for mercy and with tears. So after the destruction of the second temple it is taught that the confession of sins belongs to repentance and is a condition of the divine forgiveness, and when Israel would confess their sins G-d at once turns and has mercy on them.

However, the Torah has certainly not passed away and neither is the requirement for blood atonement. A ransom is the payment for a price which is placed upon our life for forgiveness from sin. Essentially, by determining our hearts for obedience and repentance, we are not paying the ransom, which G-d requires of us through ritual expiation according to the Torah�s mitzvoth (commandments). With that in mind, the next question is whether the Messiah Yeshua has made atonement in his blood for our sins or not? Is it acceptable for Yeshua to have laid down his life (John 10:15) as a ransom for many? (see Matthew 20:28;. Acts 20:28; Romans 3:23-24; 1 Corinthians. 6:19-20; Galatians 3:13; 4:4-5: Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; 1 Timothy 2:6; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19. In all these passages the same idea is expressed).



In Judaism, the concept of the Messiah comes with it thoughts of a �Golden Age� that is reminiscent of the golden age in the past, the good old times of the early monarchy in Israel, the revival of the kingdom under a prince of the Davidic line. The idea of a prince from the Davidic line is figuratively described as a �branch� or �offshoot� and comes from Jeremiah 23:5-6: 23:5 "The days are coming," says ADONAI when I will raise a righteous Branch for David. He will reign as king and succeed, he will do what is just and right in the land. 23:6 In his days Y'hudah will be saved, Isra'el will live in safety, and the name given to him will be ADONAI Tzidkenu [ADONAI our righteousness]. (CJB)

In his days, Judah will be delivered and Israel lives in security; and this is the name by which he shall be called �Adonai our righteousness.� Similarly in the twin passage in Jeremiah 33:14-16, with the addition that the succession of Davidic kings and of Levitical priests shall never be cut off, and more expansively and emphatically in the versus following in Jeremiah 33:19-22. Jeremiah 33:14-16 "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will fulfill this good promise which I have proclaimed for the house of Isra'el and the house of Y'hudah. When those days come, at that time, I will cause to spring up for David a Branch of Righteousness. He will do what is just and right in the land. When those days come, Y'hudah will be saved, Yerushalayim will live in safety, and the name given to her will be ADONAI Tzidkenu [ADONAI our Righteousness]." (CJB)

notice the verses in Jeremiah 23:5-6 and 33:14-16 which refer to the Messiah. The verse says �Adonai Tzidkenu� which means the Lord our Righteousness. This is exactly the role the Messiah is to take, to become our righteousness in the sense that the Messiah brings with him a form of T�shuvah (repentance) that becomes our righteousness before G-d. This fits exactly with what Yeshua did on our behalf. Rabbinically speaking, how then is it possible to offer our own fat and blood to make atonement for our sins? Can we offer our lips as bulls when we are a people of unclean lips? (Isaiah 6:5) Clearly the rabbinical teaching that the sacrifice has moved to one of �repentance only� teaches against the explicit mitzvot in the Torah on ritual expiation.



Throughout the Torah we see G-d has taken the first steps towards our receiving forgiveness of sins. With Adam and Eve G-d provided the first sacrifice and made skins to cover the nakedness of their bodies. For Avraham Avinu (Abraham, Father), G-d provided a ram for him to offer in place of his son Yitzchak. And in these last days G-d has provided his only son Yeshua Hamoshiach to make atonement in his blood for our sins. This last thing G-d did on our behalf is what enables us to receive forgiveness while yet maintaining the truth of G-d�s mitzvot within the Torah. Hebrews 9:14 then how much more the blood of the Messiah, who, through the eternal Spirit, offered himself to G-d as a sacrifice without blemish, will purify our conscience from works that lead to death, so that we can serve the living G-d! (CJB)



It is impossible to make atonement and receive forgiveness before G-d without a sacrifice. G-d has provided a way to both receive atonement and forgiveness which is found in the Messiah. Furthermore, G-d using his Messiah enables us not only to fulfill Torah in our lives, but to also love others as G-d has loved us by setting up his kingdom in our hearts. G-d has set up his kingdom in our hearts as a way to bring peace not only to Israel, but also to all the earth in His Messiah. The Torah is not fulfilled with respect to atonement for sins when we only offer prayers in the hopes that propitiation is made for our sins. Atonement for sins is completed in the Messiah. In Jeremiah 23:5-6, we find the Messiah will be �The Lord our Righteousness� and the way he becomes our righteousness is by the atonement he has made in His own blood, and by faith we have that atonement.

And since the Scripture say about Jesus: Hebrews 7: 20 What is more, God swore an oath. For no oath was sworn in connection with those who become cohanim ( priest) now; 21 but Yeshua became a cohen by the oath which God swore when he said to him, "ADONAI has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a cohen forever.'" 22 Also this shows how much better is the covenant of which Yeshua has become guarantor. 23 Moreover, the present cohanim are many in number, because they are prevented by death from continuing in office. 24 But because he lives forever, his position as cohen does not pass on to someone else; 25 and consequently, he is totally able to deliver those who approach God through him; since he is alive forever and thus forever able to intercede on their behalf. 26 This is the kind of cohen gadol that meets our need - holy, without evil, without stain, set apart from sinners and raised higher than the heavens; 27 one who does not have the daily necessity, like the other cohanim g'dolim, of offering up sacrifices first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; because he offered one sacrifice, once and for all, by offering up himself. 28 For the Torah appoints as cohanim g'dolim men who have weakness; but the text which speaks about the swearing of the oath, a text written later than the Torah, appoints a Son who has been brought to the goal forever.



Now how can we ever loose our salvation because Jesus is totally able to deliver those who approach God through him since he is alive forever and thus forever able to intercede on their behalf. Yes, when people hear the Good News they have the free will to reject Him. Jesus said in Luke10 "Whoever listens to you listens to me, also whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the One who sent me."

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DontHitThatMark

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Posted : 20 Oct, 2009 11:10 AM

The blood of Jesus covers all sin....it's only applied to those that believe in and accept His sacrifice. And I'm sorry but I believe that God cannot tolerate willing sin. No man can snatch you out of God's hand, but if you continue in willing sin/unbelief, God himself will cut you off. To say that He won't is presumption, because He says He will.



:peace::peace:

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Posted : 20 Oct, 2009 06:30 PM

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.



10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;



11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)



12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.



13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.



15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.



16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.



18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?



20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?



21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?



22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:



23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,



In Christ



Steve



P.S.Whats this verse mean Mark?

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DontHitThatMark

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Posted : 21 Oct, 2009 01:33 PM

I believe Paul is talking about 2 classes of people. Israel(God's people), and Esau(Not God's people). God has predestined a work for His people to do, and has predestined destruction for the wicked. However, I believe that at anytime, a saved person can be cut out of israel because of unbelief or willing sin, and I believe an unsaved person can be grafted into the vine through God's influence/Holy spirit/the foolishness of preaching. I agree, degenerate humans would not come to God of their own choice, but that is why God intervened with His prophets, with His holy spirit, with His teachers and preachers. Predestination eliminates the need for witnessing, we don't have to do it, God would force it no matter what. Eliminates not only the unsaved people's free will, but also the saved people. We would just be robots that God controls, and I don't believe God works like that. He gives everyone a chance because He is a just God...Jesus died for for all sin/sinners. I believe that to say "He didn't", belittles His sacrifice and goes against the bible. It covers ALL sin, for ALL men EVERYWHERE. The WHOLE world. God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL would come to a knowledge of the truth through the Holy Spirit. I still say it's strange that the base verses for all these strange beliefs have come "from Paul", and Peter says "Be careful of what Paul says, it's easy to twist". He didn't say "be careful of what Luke writes". How do you know that you're not unstable/unlearned? And the correct answer is "I don't know", because you don't know anymore than I do. It's pride that motivates you to say you have all the truth you need. How "learned and stable" do you think the Pope thinks he is? Yeah. Probably a lot. How wrong is he in your eyes? Probably a lot. If someone like him can be wrong...then you could be too. And you probably wouldn't even know it. I am not positive I am right, but I am positive the bible is right. Weigh scripture with scripture, and I'm sorry, but there are too many verses that directly contradict your beliefs for me to believe like you do. So while I'm not sure I'm right, I'm pretty sure you are wrong....sorry. But if our hearts are in the right place, when God calls we will answer...so lets just wait for that red phone to ring. Lets just hope we can change when He asks us to.



:peace::peace:

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Posted : 22 Oct, 2009 05:19 AM

The red phones ringing.....





> "Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac.

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in

order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works, but by

Him who calls--she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' Just

as it is written: 'Jacob I loved--but Esau I hated.'" Romans 9:10-13

>

> Jacob supplies us with the clearest and most unmistakable

illustration of God's sovereign election to be met with in all the

Bible. The case of Jacob gives the most emphatic refutation to the

theory that God's choice is dependent upon something in the

creature--something either actual or foreseen--and shows that the

eternal election of certain individuals unto salvation--is due to no

worthiness in the subjects--but results solely from God's sovereign

grace. The case of Jacob proves conclusively, that God's choice is . . .

> entirely sovereign,

> wholly gratuitous, and

> based upon nothing but His own good pleasure.

>

> The God of Scripture then, is the God who chooses one--and passes by

another. He is the One who exercises and exhibits His own sovereign

will. He is one who shows Himself to be the Most High God, ruling in

heaven and earth and disposing of His creatures according to His own

eternal purpose. He is the One who singles out the most unlikely and

unworthy objects--to be fashioned into vessels of glory. Yet, He is

the One who necessarily always acts in harmony with His own divine

perfections.

>

> Election is not as some have supposed--harsh and unjust--but is a

most merciful provision on the part of God. Had He not from the

beginning, chosen SOME to salvation--ALL would have perished! Had he

not before the foundation of the world chosen certain ones to be

conformed to the image of His Son--the death of Christ would have been

in vain, so far as the human race is concerned!

>

> Reduced to its simplest terms, ELECTION means that God chose

me--before I chose Him. Our Lord said, "You have not chosen Me--but I

have chosen you." (John 15:16) We love Him--because He first loved us.

Election means that before I was born, yes, before the foundation of

the world--I was chosen in Christ and predestined unto a place in

God's family! Election means that we believed--because He made us

willing in the day of His power. Election then,

> strips the creature of all merit,

> removes all ground of boasting,

> strikes us helpless in the dust,

> and ascribes all the glory to God!

>

In Christ



Steve

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Posted : 22 Oct, 2009 05:41 AM

God does not cause people to reject Him. God is not the author of

sin. Try and think of it this way. Because of the Fall, all people

are naturally in rebellion to God. To the fallen world, becoming a

Christian is sort of an anti-lottery. NO ONE wants to "win".

To them, becoming a Christian is not something they want at all.



God, does however cause His people to repent and trust in Him.

(Eph.2:8,9)

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Posted : 22 Oct, 2009 05:43 AM

The atonement is for "whosoever will", but ONLY the ones that God has

already made alive with His Holy Spirit, will actually come to Christ.

And that is the ONLY reason they do it.



If I ask you "why did you accept Jesus and your neighbor did not?"

You might say, "I saw my need for Christ".

Then I would say, "why did you see your need for Christ and you

neighbor did not?"

Who knows what your answer will be next, but we could keep going until

it came down to one of two things. You are either smarter than your

neighbor, or a better person than your neighbor.



That is what it comes down to if you say that God does not save us.



The Bible says that even faith and repentance are gifts, and so we

can't even boast about having faith. (Eph.2:8,9)

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Posted : 22 Oct, 2009 05:45 AM

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and

glorified the Word of God; and as many as were Ordained to eternal

life believed.



There is an outward call to everyone to repent and trust in Jesus, but

the Holy Spirit extends an inward call to the elect, and only they

will repent and trust in Jesus. They will do it because they want to,

but the only reason they want to, is because God made them come alive

spiritually.

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Posted : 22 Oct, 2009 05:48 AM

You are saying that if God is sovereign in salvation, then why pray,

or do anything?



Well, the short answer is "because God said to"! But the longer

answer is:





God has not only chosen the ends of all things, but also the means of

all things.





The means God has chosen are the "foolishness of preaching", inviting

friends to church, sharing the gospel, bible tracts, crazy TV

preachers, etc, etc.



We are to use the means that God has chosen.

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