One of the misconceptions about Faith and Works debates is dealing with unbiblical concepts such as the "Faith ALONE" belief. This belief basically states that if any physical act we do in any way contributes to our Salvation then it is a "work" and therefore is not the Gospel message. They will also state that those who believe in water Baptism as being a necessary element towards our salvation is not biblical and therefore that person is not a Christian, not saved.
For there position to be correct then there cannot be any scriptures whatsoever that link any physical act we do that is linked to our salvation. This is paramount for their theology to be correct.
If we can find even just one scripture that links a physical act that we do towards our salvation then their entire theology falls apart and cannot stand. Let's see if there are any such scriptures that shows a physical act that is connected in any way to our salvation.
Romans10:9 that if you confess ...WITH YOUR MOUTH... the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, AND WITH THE MOUTH confession is made unto salvation. NKJV
Here we see that confession WITH the MOUTH is a physical act that is directly linked to our Salvation. This one passage utterly destroys the "Faith ALONE" theology.
So does this imply that works contribute to our Salvation? No it does not. What this verse demonstrates is that not everything we do physically is a work. Let's examine a couple of more.
Mark 16: 16 "He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED....will be saved; but he who does not believe[disbelieves] will be condemned. NKJV
Notice the grammar in that Baptism is placed before salvation. In other words before salvation occurs Baptism occurs first. Jesus made this a commandment not a suggestion.
So is Baptism a work?
Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, THROUGH..the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, NKJV
What is the "washing of Regeneration? Water Baptism. Notice that it is God who saves us according to HIS mercy,..."THROUGH the washing of regeneration ...AND the renewing of the Holy Spirit". Notice how Paul separated works of righteousness from "the washing of regeneration". This is significant! This again demonstrates that not all physical acts are "works or righteousness" as the unbiblical Faith ALONE" believers claim.
Notice that it is God who saves us, not ourselves, but notice WHERE He chooses to save us.....THROUGH the washing of regeneration, through water Baptism. It is not the water that saves us. Water Baptism is the LOCATION or OCCASION where God saves us under most normal circumstances. This is the rule!
Mark 16: 16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe[disbelieves] will be condemned. NKJV
�Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life� (Rom. 6:3-4).
�For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ� (Gal. 3:26-27).
I'm sorry, but I just think the bible is very clear. Yes, we all know that no one can earn salvation. It's only by faith. BUT what happens to your faith if you do not obey God? It's dead faith. Can you be saved if you have dead faith? The bible makes it very clear that a person can lose their salvation through unbelief. Whether they had it at one time or not. Israel was God's elected people. He cut them off the vine because of unbelief. You can't grieve away the holy spirit if you never had it. Salvation is always free, but are you denying God's sovereignty ability to take it away? No "man" can remove you from God's grace...but I think Gift-giver can. In my view the predestination doctrine as taught by Calvinists just gives rest to the wicked. "Oh don't worry about it, you're already saved. You'll just do good stuff automatically now". Saved people can fall, and to tell them they can't is just Satan's old line, "You will not surely die". "Oh well they weren't really saved anyway". How do you know you are saved?
I'm sorry, but I just think the bible is very clear. Yes, we all know that no one can earn salvation. It's only by faith. BUT what happens to your faith if you do not obey God? It's dead faith. Can you be saved if you have dead faith? The bible makes it very clear that a person can lose their salvation through unbelief. Whether they had it at one time or not. Israel was God's elected people. He cut them off the vine because of unbelief. You can't grieve away the holy spirit if you never had it. Salvation is always free, but are you denying God's sovereignty ability to take it away? No "man" can remove you from God's grace...but I think Gift-giver can. In my view the predestination doctrine as taught by Calvinists just gives rest to the wicked. "Oh don't worry about it, you're already saved. You'll just do good stuff automatically now". Saved people can fall, and to tell them they can't is just Satan's old line, "You will not surely die". "Oh well they weren't really saved anyway". How do you know you are saved?
It is clear that you are not understanding what I am writing or what I believe the scriptures teach. You are making assumptions based upon what you "think" I believe. As such you are making implied if not direct charges that because I believe what I do that I am part of a cult and teaching a "works" based salvation and therefore I am not saved, not Born Again, not a real Christian. What arrogance! Are you God? Are you in any position to know the hearts of people to determine one's salvation? Is the twisted theology of Calvinism the standard by which this judgment is based? God forbid!
Are you not able to discern for yourself what the Greek says?
Are you not able to discern when a Greek scholar is allowing his personal bias to determine his opinion as to what the Greek means? Do you not realize that just because someone has the man made credentials of being a so called "Greek scholar" is not indicative of his accuracy of the interpretation? This is your primary problem. You rely heavily on the opinions of men which is something you and Ella have already admitted.
Calvinism is not the standard by which to govern what is a Christian doctrine or not. Calvinism is a perversion of the scriptures plain and simple and the problem is that you see scriptures through the eyes of a Calvinist.
Let's look at what AT Robertson, a BAPTIST, said.
"The grammatical context is also important. A key word in Acts 2:38 for the baptismal salvation proponents is "for"; "baptized... for the forgiveness of sins." They insist that the meaning be interpreted "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins. The problem with this insistence is that the word "for" (eis, in Greek) has several connotations in New Testament Koine Greek. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament says that eis is a versatile word which primarily "denotes entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among," (p. 183).""
WALTER: The Greek text conclusively demonstrates that the word "FOR" in this passage only has one meaning. The word "FOR" is better translated "UNTO". Both carry the same meaning. The word "FOR" or "eis" is a Greek "transitive preposition" and is used 1774 times in the New Testament and IN EVERY SINGLE CASE, it means FOR or UNTO and NEVER does it mean "because of". If the word meant "because of", it would imply that remission of sins is due to a PRIOR act and that baptism played no part. Unfortunately for those who try to make that argument, the Greek does not support that conclusion or definition. A transitive preposition means that it has a forward progress to an object to a desired result. Baptism is FOR/UNTO the remission of sins.
The text of Peter's sermon states plainly that baptism is �for the remission of sins.� �Eis� is a transitive preposition, meaning that progress is inherent in the meaning. It is most often translated �into� or �unto� in the KJV. The general sense is progression to a point reached. The inherent forward progress is ALWAYS present when used with a transitive verb � a verb that implies motion, progression, or transition. The transitive force of �eis�is sometimes even apparent when used with intransitive verbs (state of being verbs) � which normally do not themselves imply progress, yet the transitive nature of "eis" overpowers the intransitive power of the verb (cf. Rom. 1:16)
AT Robertson tried to make a case that "eis" can mean different things in scripture. While that is hypothetically true it is also dependent upon the context and grammar of the other words surrounding any given passage. Robertson failed terribly to disprove Acts 2:38 because he could not demonstrate a single instance in scripture where "eis" did not mean "UNTO" or "FOR".
For an in depth study into this issue and exposing Robertson's false claims...go here.
I have demonstrated many times,all through these posts why,If you teach that water baptism is a required for salvation that you are teaching works salvation,you are so convinced of your position that your not going to seriously consider the alternitive,wich is my position,call it a cult,or whatever you want,the gospel is simple,and what your teaching is not it!
also you say my beleifs are a perversion of christianity,and you say im arrogant?Well I think the pot is calling the kettle black here,I have shown that the bible teaches unconditional election all the way through,again,I do not beleive you have to beleive in calvinism to be saved,but I,and many other christians beleive in the doctrines of grace,I feel any other discussion on this issue would be redundant,maybe you should get a hot tub in your house and just lay in it perpetually,just to make sure.....ehh
Me,Im gonna rely on what Christ did ALONE for my salvation.
In Christ
Steve
P.S.I have been baptised,to show obediance,not for regeneration,thats done in the heart and in the mind by our Lord
Weeell...I think all of us are pots calling the pots black. Just a conflict of interpretations. You say Jesus only paid for a just a few people's sin, while I'm pretty sure me an' walter say Jesus died for everybody. You say water baptism is something we do automatically after you're saved. Me an' walter say it's a choice. You say believing and having faith to be saved is works, I say you have your definition of works messed up. I think it all comes down to what I believe are faulty doctrines, because the bible says IF you have faith, IF you believe, THEN you will be saved. Not you WILL be saved, THEN you'll have faith, THEN you'll believe. But I'm sure you think my beliefs are faulty as well, which brings me back to the point I keep making...I'm not trying to convince you. You are fully convinced in what you believe. If one of us is wrong, only God can show it to us. I'm just trying to defend/witness about my faith. It's what we're supposed to do, right?
Walter, Walter...and under whose spirutal authority do you speak and beleive, and where do you get your teaching?...
Scripture is very clear, direct, to the point, and speaks for its self! So it matters not Whether its in the Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Spanish, French, German, or English. Salvation is by faith alone, through Jesus Christ... Water baptism does not bring salvation and this cannot be found nowhere... the problem is spiritually understanding and connecting the dots to the hearing of the vioce of what the Holy Spirit in speaking, and not depending on the authority of what one thinks God is trying to say in the Greek... know what He speaks in the English. I think that works, because no matter what the language of translation in the Greek or whateva, God is only interested in knowing that a soul is saved because of their belief in His Only Begotten So... in this, all of heaven rejoices!
Jesus did the works, and completed all the work that needed to be done when He died a suffering death on the cross... theology nor Greek intrepretations of God's word, have never save anybody that I know of... Only Jesus Christ saves wherther you are baptized in water and come up a half wet sinne,r or you're by the Hoy Spirit and cleansed on the inside to reflect the charater of Christ... Just as long as you BELIEVE! PRAISE HIS BLESSED NAME! applause::glow:
The operative word in salvation is "BELIEVE"! The word of God and belief in what it say leads to one being saved. A sinner reading the word of God for the first time is not going to go find a manuscriptue in the Greeek or Latin or Hebrew to see what translation, or who translated it into the English and what the words mean...... point of contact with the word of God and basic understanodng of God's truth as the eunuch who was save, is all that matters. I would think that's the only works of important to one salvation... a willingness to be saved.
There isn't much that can be said about water baptism being a work, scriptures shows that it is a work. John the Baptist and Jesus came preaching Repent of your sins(works of action), and be baptism(works of actio) for the remission of your sins ( an occurance that takes place AFTER the works of action have been done) as in, you don't get paid from a job until after you have gone and spent some time on the job woriking...
Hope this will help all those who may not understand that your salvation depends on your believe and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ALONE!... Water baptism is important as a witnessing tool and is an expression of your declared faith, but water baptism does not SAVE you, Jesus's death on the cross was enough WORKS to pay for our sin debt, by grace.. :yay:
