Genesis 18:25 "Far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked. That be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"
"Deut. 24:16, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Ezek. 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
Ezek.33:20, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."
Jer. 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."
"Thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Romans 2:5-9
�But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death� (James 1:14,15).
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
I believe Adams sin caused us to inherited sinful "propensities," "inclinations," "tendencies," and "death"....but not the punishment for his sin. We became a sinful race because of it....to use your "theology speak"...depraved, but not totally depraved. We lost our connection with God because of Adams sin. We now serve only ourselves...but God is using His influence to convict us of our fallen nature and save us by grace through faith.
===Not my words here, but interesting===
The Bible says that God will "judge the world in righteousness." Psalm 9:8. But could God judge the world and be righteous if this doctrine were true? What of the heathen who are lost without ever hearing the Gospel? If this doctrine is true, the heathen are born sinners and will of necessity live in sin because of an inherited sin nature, and when they die without ever hearing the Gospel and having a chance to be saved, they are doomed to the everlasting punishment of hell. Now if it is true that they are born sinners and cannot help but sin, can God justly send them to hell? Our God-given convictions of justice war against such an idea.
Those who believe in the doctrine of original sin cannot escape the conviction that justice requires that the heathen have a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. They cannot escape the convictions that it is unjust that the heathen be lost without at least having the opportunity to hear the Gospel. They feel that the heathen are owed the opportunity to hear the Gospel so they might be saved.
But where did this idea come from that the heathen are owed the chance to be saved? I answer: It springs up irresistibly from the belief that men are not the authors of their own sin. It springs up from the belief that men are born with a sinful nature and cannot help but sin. So since they are born with a sinful nature and cannot help but sin, they cannot deserve hell without at least a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. But the idea that any one is owed the chance to be saved is completely foreign to the Bible. God does not owe anyone the chance to be saved. He does not save anyone to satisfy justice. Jesus did not die for wicked men because he owed them a chance to be saved, but because of his love, mercy, and grace.
But those who believe in the doctrine of original sin find themselves with compelling convictions that contradict the fundamental Bible doctrine of God's righteousness in judging the heathen. The doctrine of original sin compels them to believe that it is not just for the heathen to be judged without a chance to be saved. And, in fact, if the doctrine of original sin were true, it would not be just to condemn the heathen without a chance to hear the Gospel and be saved. Moreover, if the doctrine of original sin were true, salvation would be on the grounds of justice rather than grace. The justice of God would require that God not only make sure that all mankind have a chance to hear the Gospel, but it would also require that God provide grace (or justice) of such a magnitude that ALL men(including heathens) would have to be certainly and irresistibly be saved.
The doctrine of original sin makes Jesus a sinner. If the doctrine of original sin is true, then Mary was also born a sinner; and if a sinner always produces another sinner, and if all those who are born of woman are born sinners, then there is no way to escape the conclusion that Jesus also was born a sinner. The advocates of original sin are also making Jesus a sinner because he partook of the same human nature as other men.
Jesus was a man. He was born of a woman. He was the seed of Abraham, the offspring of David, descended from Adam. Matt. 1:1, Rom. 1:3, Heb. 2:16, Rev. 22:16. The humanity of Christ is fully and unequivocably taught in the Bible, and to teach the doctrine that men are born sinners is to teach the blasphemy that "the man Christ Jesus" was born a sinner.
The Bible says, "Verily he took not on him the nature of angels but the seed of Abraham." Heb. 2:16. "In all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest." Heb. 2:17. "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same." Heb. 2:14. "For both he that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:11. "For we have not an high priest which can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we, yet without sin." Heb. 4:15.
The Bible teaches that Christ was, in all respects, a real man, possessing both a human body and a human soul, and with all the attributes of a man. He was born of a woman. He was nourished and cared for by his mother, as other men are. He was circumcised according to the law of Moses. He was once an infant in knowledge, for he grew both in Wisdom and in stature. He hungered, he thirsted, he ate, he drank, he labored, he slept, he grew tired, and he lived and died like other men. He was recognized as a man and a Jew by other men. "Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be make like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." "For we have not an high priest which can not be touched with the feelings of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren." Heb. 2:17, 4:15, 2:11.
It is a serious error to deny the deity of Christ. One cannot be a Christian and deny his deity. John taught that it is equally serious to deny the humanity of Christ. "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God." I John 4:2, 3. "Many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. II John 7.
The doctrine of Christ's human nature is fully attested in the Bible. Nevertheless, because of their belief that men are born sinners and that human nature or the flesh is inherently sinful, the defenders of the doctrine of original sin must deny in some way or another the real humanity of Christ and that he came in human flesh like other men. Phil. 2:6-8, I Tim. 3:16, Gal. 4:4, John 1:14, I John 4:2-3, II John 7.
1.When adam was placed in the garden of eden,he was warned not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil on the threat of immediate spiritual death(spiritual is implied by the use of our common sense,adam did not die instantly,but actually lived for hundreds of years.But his relationship to god was radically different after the fall,He hid from god,he brought sin into the world,remember,god knew all of this would happen,he chose to create man anyway)When he ate the fruit he not only brought spiritual death to himself,but to the entire race!
Romans 5;12 Therefore as sin came into the world through ONE MAN,and death through sin,and so death spread to all men....
Ephesians 2;1-3 And you he MADE ALIVE,when you were DEAD through trespasses and sins in wich you once walked.......................so we were by NATURE children of wrath
Psalm51;5 behold,I was brought forth in iniquity{Born Into}and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58;3 The wicked go astray from the womb,they err from BIRTH speaking lies
Genisis 8;12.....the imagination of mans heart is evil from his youth
1.When adam was placed in the garden of eden,he was warned not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil on the threat of immediate spiritual death(spiritual is implied by the use of our common sense,adam did not die instantly,but actually lived for hundreds of years.But his relationship to god was radically different after the fall,He hid from god,he brought sin into the world,remember,god knew all of this would happen,he chose to create man anyway)When he ate the fruit he not only brought spiritual death to himself,but to the entire race!
Romans 5;12 Therefore as sin came into the world through ONE MAN,and death through sin,and so death spread to all men....
Ephesians 2;1-3 And you he MADE ALIVE,when you were DEAD through trespasses and sins in wich you once walked.......................so we were by NATURE children of wrath
Psalm51;5 behold,I was brought forth in iniquity{Born Into}and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58;3 The wicked go astray from the womb,they err from BIRTH speaking lies
Genisis 8;12.....the imagination of mans heart is evil from his youth
Just off the top of my head,my answer is,GOD doesnt owe man any kind of justice,he can do anything he wants with his creation,I beleive any doctrine but (calvinism) elevates mans position too much.Think of it like this,Your in a lab.You are a scientist,you create a life form,the life form does not behave in the way you desire,you destroy it and start over.You could do anything you want with this life form,you have complete power over it.You do not owe it anything,its entire existance depends on you!From everything ive read in the bible and everything ive observed in this world,I beleive there is no natural good in man!When the bible says mans heart is evil,I beleive it,even a lot of good people do is for selfish reasons.If you really look deep into your soul and examine the real motives behind almost everything you do,its usally motivated by something not so good,well sure we are nice to people,we want to be liked,get along,be popular,keep our jobs,get ahead in life,....ect,(I beleive mens hearts are so blinded we dont even realize the evil we are capable of!I also beleive the closer you get to god the more you realise the evil in your self,how horrible we really are inside,I beleive,without supernatural help,we are incapable of conforming to gods perfect holiness,I beleive that men are so evil that if god took his hand off the world for even a few days we would destroy each other!I beleive if you cant see how evil we are,you are not regenerated,this is the first step!You wont go to the doctor if you dont know your sick!Of course,being a calvinist,I beleive we are not just sick,but dead in need of god to ressurect us first,I dont however beleive our different veiws should divide us!
Oh,and the other thing about god and flesh and all that,just playing with words my friend,GOD CAN DO ANYTHING,I think what that verse was saying was.....if you do not beleive this man is god,or something like that....If your god,and you have the awareness that your god,and you step into your own creation,you still have your own soul and nature,gods nature(who he is inside did not change because he took on a flesh covered body!I have a flesh covered body,but i cant calm a storm,or rise from the dead!He had a mans body,but he was still god,remember he had no earthly father!He was artifically inseminated!He knew who he was.If man was not born into sin,and it was possible to be a man and not sin,then out of the billions of people born into this world,odds are we would have one example of someone who was sinless,yet this is not what we find at all!Except for Christ.Face it my friend,man was born into a curse,no we dont pay for someone elses sin,we have plenty of them to pay for on our own.And in my opinion,wether you beleive god wakes you up to this fact,or you wake yourself up to this fact,is not as important as knowing,and really getting the point that THERE IS NO NATURAL GOOD IN MAN!!!!!!
This is the starting point for salvation,calvinist,or arminian......
"Just off the top of my head,my answer is,GOD doesnt owe man any kind of justice,he can do anything he wants with his creation,I beleive any doctrine but (calvinism) elevates mans position too much.Think of it like this,Your in a lab.You are a scientist,you create a life form,the life form does not behave in the way you desire,you destroy it and start over.You could do anything you want with this life form,you have complete power over it.You do not owe it anything,its entire existance depends on you!"
Yeah...I know it was just an example...but you're comparing God to man right there...God is not like us. I don't believe His is the kind of creator that messes up. I don't believe He's the kind of God that would give special favor to some of His creation, and not make it available to others. If He is so bent on destroying evil then why did He let Satan live to torture everyone? Why did He even create Satan if He knew He was going to sin? Why did He let Satan into the Garden of Eden if He knew Adam would sin? The only thing that makes sense is free will. And where does the bible say that we lost it? I know we wouldn't chose God of ourselves because we're sinful....but all God had to do was convince one human, and then have that human spread His word or even just do it Himself. The foolishness of preaching. Bam. God's influence is back in the world, and men begin to see how sinful they are compared to God. They feel guilty. They feel the need for a savior. They hear about Jesus. They see God's great love for them. They have faith that God's sacrifice applies to them. The bible says that anyone who comes to a knowledge of the truth will be saved. Anyone that has faith will be saved. Anyone that believes. Anyone that calls on the name of Jesus.
"Oh,and the other thing about god and flesh and all that,just playing with words my friend,GOD CAN DO ANYTHING,I think what that verse was saying was.....if you do not believe this man is god,or something like that....If your god,and you have the awareness that your god,and you step into your own creation,you still have your own soul and nature,gods nature(who he is inside did not change because he took on a flesh covered body!I have a flesh covered body,but i cant calm a storm,or rise from the dead!He had a mans body,but he was still god,remember he had no earthly father!He was artifically inseminated!"
Ok, but you're kinda proving my point here. The bible says that He had the nature of Abraham, not God's nature. He was fully human and fully God. But the bible says He suffered like we suffer. You're saying that Jesus did not become a man like the bible says He did. That He was God, just with a fleshy covering. Then He cheated. It is impossible for God to sin. So He did not prove that a human could live a sinless life, because He wasn't human. I just think you need to rethink where you're coming from. What you're saying sounds a lot like what the bible is warning not to say. And yes, sin came into the world through Adam, but I see no verses in the bible that say we are responsible for his sin. I just showed you a bunch of verses that say the children do not suffer for the sins of the fathers. They "die" for their own sins. Spiritual death separates us from God, but I don't see anywhere that it removes our free will. Can you explain what you think about that? And unfortunately our views will divide us eventually. What do you think it's talking about in revelation? Who is the beast? It's very easy to prove that it's Rome/The catholic church. Rome is the mother of harlots. What is the image to the beast? Who are the harlots? They're the churches that believe after the similitude of the Roman Catholic church. Maybe you need to look at your belief system and see how much of it matches up with Catholicism. It's scary. And then look up how much of Catholicism matches up with paganism.
http://www.666mark-of-the-beast.org/
(And people can raise people from the dead, people can heal other people....the apostles did)
I havent read this Verse (IN CONTEXT)but im thinking,you,or whoever you poached this twisted logic from probably stretched this point trying to disprove calvinism.Of course I beleive Jesus was Fully god,and fully man,but his ancestors are not human,matter of fact,he has no anscestors,He is eternal,so he is not under a curse from his ancestors,because he has none!I do not claim to know everything about this.I am still learning.But do you notice that your position always elevates man(or tries to)The apostles could do those things because they were empowered by god,not because they had there own power.We are limited in what we are allowed to know about god,we dont know what it was like to be god,we know what its like for us to be human,and thats all,you are assuming that god was exactly like us when he was jesus.well he was,except for one small detail,HE WAS FULLY GOD!LOL,pretty small detail,hunh!You say god cheated,I say,If your drowning,who can better rescue you,someone whos drowning with you,or someone who is standing on solid ground reaching out to you?I dont see any verses in the bible that say god gave up his god nature,to become man,only that he took on the nature of man,lets not stretch this beyond the point where we can truly understand this!Chrits work as mediator was unique;it was to restore us to divine favour and to make us sons of god,instead of sons of men.hiers of a heavenly kingdom instead of hiers of hell.only the son of god could do this by becoming the son of man.He received what is ours to transfer to us what is his.What is his by nature can become ours by grace.
You're right, but it was not just to save us that Jesus came. He also came to succeed where Adam failed, and gain the princedom back from Satan. He could not do that if He was unable to sin. But He took on the fallen nature of Abraham, not pre-fallen Adam, not Angels. The difference was, because He was the son of God, He was born with the connection that we have when we accept Jesus sacrifice. Grace covers our sin and God restores His connection to us. No one can come to the God except through Jesus. I believe Adams sin caused our spiritual death, but I don't see where it caused us to lose our will. We became sinful and "turned to corruption", but the stuff I see in the bible says that we have to have faith to be saved. We have to "believe with all our heart" or we're lost. Apparently you count that as a work, but it's what the bible says. I do not "elevate man" with this belief. The bible says it. I just believe it. I think these verses are talking to you.
Ezekiel 18
King James Bible
1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife, 12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, 16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, 17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. 25 Yet ye say, The way of the LORD is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the LORD is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
Those verses are saying sin is not passed down. Romans 5 is saying DEATH is passed down because of sin. Spiritual and physical death. I don't see how it says that somehow we were all cosmically involved at the tree, and therefore sinned with Adam. And you say God can do whatever He wants. You're right. Why wouldn't He want to leave us our free will? Until you can show me a bible verse that says we lost our will...I don't think I can believe your point of view. The bible is too clear on this point to me. I still think you need to ask yourself if you're following the bible or if you could be following a pagan influenced belief. A lot of people out there are. Your belief elevates man after he's saved. You can't do anything so bad as to lose your salvation. Me? I'm in danger every second. You don't know how much I wish I could believe you...but the bible is plain. It's not that easy. After you're saved, you can fall. You could be the rocky ground. Someone that believes for a time. Someone that received that word with joy. How are you so sure that you aren't? What about the fertile ground with weeds? Maybe you're one of them?
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Matthew13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
The ones that were sown in the thorns became unfruitful...does that mean they were fruitful at one time? And what about the ones that fell on the wayside? Satan comes and takes the word away before they can believe? Does that mean they would have believed? This parable also implies that God does want everyone to be saved. He spreads the seed everywhere.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
The bible is full of verses like that. But please. I would like to hear what you have to say about those verses in Ezekiel.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Ezekial was not giving a discourse on the fall of adam.the fall is not in veiw here,rather,ezekiel is addressing the commonplace excuse that men use for their sins.they try to blame someone else for their own misdeeds,that human activity has gone on since the fall.But that is all this passage has to do with the fall.In the fall,eve blamed the serpant,and adam blamed both god and eve for his own sin,he said "the woman YOU gave to be with me,she gave me of the tree and I ate"(GEN:3;12)
Ever since men have tried to pass the buck of their own sin,yes a general principle of gods justice is set forth in ezekial,but it is not an absolute principle,If we make this an absolute principle the the text of ezekiel would go too far!If it is never possible for one to be punished for the sins of another,then we have no savior,Jesus was punished for our sins!that is the very point of the gospel,not only was Jesus punished for our sins,but his rightousness is the meritorious basis for our justification,we are justified by an alien righteousness,a righteousness that is not our own.If we press ezekials statement to the absolute limit,when we read"the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself"Then we are left as sinners who must justify themselves that puts us all in deep doo doo.
Adam was selected by god to be a perfect representitve of humanity,yes we are under the curse of a fallen world
Yes women still have pain in childbirth,men still earn their living by the sweat of their brow,roses still have thorns,the whole of creation still groans and labors with birth pangs.
I don't see how romans 7 is proving your point...I do that all the time. I still have sin in my life that I hate with my whole heart...but I still fall into it. What that's saying is....your mind is willing but the body is weak. I want to serve God only but sometimes I fall. Meaning that those few times that sin has the victory doesn't derail my christian walk as long as I fight it. Hopefully God will give me victory over it. I'm starting to think that God leaves us in sin a little bit to keep our need for Him ever before us. If I ever did gain complete victory, I might start to think I was pretty awesome. But as it is I can sympathize with people who are in pain...because I am. Paul had an affliction as well. Maybe it was to keep him human. I'm not saying we should keep sin in our lives...we should always be striving to be like Jesus. But it's not the victory that makes us strong. It's the fight. God will give me the victory when I am strong enough.
"Ever since men have tried to pass the buck of their own sin,yes a general principle of gods justice is set forth in ezekial,but it is not an absolute principle,If we make this an absolute principle the the text of ezekiel would go too far!If it is never possible for one to be punished for the sins of another,then we have no savior,Jesus was punished for our sins!"
What?! Ok...um...Jesus wasn't punished for our sins anyway, even according to what you believe. If Jesus was punished for all the sin that was placed on Him...He's be burning in hell for a long time. Jesus DIED for our sin, He wasn't punished for it. And are you saying that we are not supposed to be righteous? Abraham was righteous. Noah. Moses. Daniel. Jesus. What God was talking about there was the righteous's reward, not our salvation. If the righteous remains righteous...he will get his reward...eternal life. There is no one that has become "righteous" that isn't saved already. It was a different circumstance anyway...Jesus CHOSE to pay the penalty for our sin. I believe it is an absolute principle. Here's another verse where Paul says the exact same thing.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
The Israelites trusted their own righteousness and fell. The wicked gentiles were grafted in. But Paul says it's possible for the Israelites to forsake their unbelief and be grafted back in, and it's possible for the gentiles to fall into unbelief and be cut off.
