This is something few Christians want to think about, but really, what is there to fear? We're already saved, but I think we should praise God for this attribute because otherwise, justice would never be dealt. The old puritans used to focus on God's wrath more than His love, because they had to realize just how wicked they were. Not only that, but we shouldn't just love God for one thing, but for His complete character.
The problem I think is that many people (not all) think of God's love as tolerance. God is a holy God and does not tolerate wickedness... Can a loving God not move against evil? Absolutely not; and in a sense, God's wrath against evil is loving because it rids the burden that His good creation has to bear.
We already know the infinite depth that God's love can go, but few of us are willing to dwell on the reality of the terror of God's wrath. I have noticed that most people who hate to hear about this attribute are often backsliders or unsaved... Really, I used to be one of those people. Actually, I still backslide sometimes so I'm still in this group; but what I tell other people in regards to Biblical truths is what I tell myself. I realize that very few people talk about this issue, and someone has to, right?
You know all those nifty sayings that God hates the sin and not the sinner? Well it's not Biblical; and God hates the sinner, not just the sin. How much sense does it make to say that God judges an action?
God IS love, but what else is He?
Hmm...
"For our God is a consuming fire." - Hebrews 12:29 (KJV)
Some people like to say that this is all Old Testament stuff, but their assertion is inaccurate because God is the same forever.
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." - Hebrews 13:8 (KJV)
People often take God's great love for great tolerance, and can take advantage of it... Yes, God is rich in mercy, but do you really want to abuse the privileges? If someone saved you from falling off a cliff would you act in animosity towards that person?
Furthermore, when you extract one attribute out of God, and don't have a Biblical balance revering His other attributes, His character is tarnished... What is love without hatred? What would it be? You also diminish the value of God's love when you ONLY talk about it and not His wrath. What about the cross? Do you even know what happened? Jesus Christ drank the cup of the wrath of God for US! That is LOVE, but you can't just ignore the part you don't want to hear.
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." - Isaiah 53:10 (KJV)
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"I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." - Isaiah 66:4 (KJV)
"Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices." - Proverbs 1:31 (KJV)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." - Romans 1:18 (KJV)
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." - Matthew 7:13 (KJV)
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
"He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light." - Psalm 49:19 (KJV)
"Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered." - Proverbs 11:21 (KJV)
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." - Matthew 5:29 (KJV)
"Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." - Psalm 11:6 (KJV)
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." - 2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb." - Revelation 14:10 (KJV)
"Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them." - Psalm 55:15 (KJV)
"Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied." - Proverbs 27:20 (KJV)
"Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction." - Psalm 73:18 (KJV)
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." - Matthew 7:19 (KJV)
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18 (KJV)
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36 (KJV)
"According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence." - Isaiah 59:18 (KJV)
"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." - Isaiah 66:15 (KJV)
"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." - Psalm 5:5 (KJV)
"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day." - Psalm 7:11 (KJV)
"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." - Revelation 19:15 (KJV)
"Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them." - Ezekiel 8:18 (KJV)
"I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment." - Isaiah 63:3 (KJV)
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." - Romans 9:22 (KJV)
"And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire." - Isaiah 33:12 (KJV)
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." - Isaiah 66:24 (KJV)
"And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day." - Deuteronomy 29:28 (KJV)
"Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD." - Ezekiel 22:31 (KJV)
"And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy." - Ezekiel 21:31 (KJV)
"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." - Romans 9:13 (KJV)
"Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate." - Jeremiah 10:25 (KJV)
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Quite a handful to swallow, right? Yeah, God is no pushover which really makes me cherish His love so much more...
Just remember there's a Biblical balance in all things.
LOTC,beatiful my brother,dont let them frustrate you,your words are logical and correct,this is good training!we cant let our pride in ourselves stop us from proclaiming the truth of god,the arminian veiwpoint was veiwed as heresy in the synod of droit in 1610,the confessions of faith and the catechisms reflect the grace doctrines,this new veiw is the politically correct,all you need is love,veiw that americans love to hang on to!I understand why they do!They dont want to imagine a god that can create beings bound for helll,they completly ignore most of romans,god makes no apologys for his judgement on the unregenerate!He does what he wants!The sinner gets no glory,and has no part in his regeneration!He cant!He is spiritually dead through the imputation of adams sin!The same way he is declared rightous through the imputation of Christs rightousness!,not of ourselves,so no man can boast,It is a gift,not given to all,his sheep hear his voice,not because their more brilliant,wise or deserving,in any way,but because it is gods choice,his will,He is the all powerful creator of the universe!our idea of fair does not apply to god!
Its not that the unregenerate cant come to god,its that they wont!Men love darkness rather than light,dead in tresspasses and sin,they are like blind men,the arminian thinks their just a little bit sick,but with gods assistance theyll be ok,this is not biblical,this is wishful thinking,and it does reflect the soft spoiled american thinking that has crept into the churches over the years!as a result of the fall men are blind and deaf to spiritual truth.their minds are darkened by sin.Their hearts are corrupted by evil!
I went to Calvinism...because "God hating the sinner, and the sin" seemed like a Calvinist view. I thought it was implied that the sinner God hates is the one that He won't predestine. You know...I believe people can change. Just like the prodigal son. I suppose I did go off topic slightly though. But c'mon...really. I don't believe in predestination. I would go so far as to say it's not biblical, but I wouldn't want to sound arrogant or presumptuous. I know. I...could...be...wrong. I'm human. Can you guys say that? I just don't get it...you guys are SO sure about this belief! What makes you so sure?! I'm extremely suspicious of people that say they know everything, and there's no chance they're wrong. Because that's impossible...and arrogant. I just think this is really funny...a meeting of perfect men(apparently) in 1610 determines whats truth? Ok...everything makes sense now, how could I have ever been so wrong.:rolleyes: I guess I'm just suspicious of any doctrine that comes out of Paul's writings. The bible itself says...
2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
I guess we should be careful with Paul. The bible's warnings are usually pretty good.
**God does NOT love everyone equally. Are you serious? God displays love to mankind in a sense. This is called the doctrine of common grace, and God gives food, breath, life, etc. to everyone on the Earth equally.**
Ok...so God tells US to love everyone...but He doesn't love everyone? Love your enemies? Bless those that curse you? What does that mean? Why do we need to do that? Why do you need to evangelize? Answer. So we can influence, through the foolishness of preaching(1 Corinthians 1:21, Romans 10:14), to save the unbelievers. Why? If everyone is predestined? The evil people won't choose God. And the saved can't help it. Really? And I don't think we are supposed to hate murderers. Only God can judge someone enough to hate them fairly...and God wants the wicked to repent. I don't believe in predestination...but God hates the sinner, ok true. Got it. Psalm 5:5? I believe one of the biggest points of salvation is that sinners can change! Everyone can change if they choose to. As a christian we have to believe that. How many times was He going to destroy Israel when they sinned and decided not to? What about Nineveh? They repented and God spared them.
Ezekiel 33:11 "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways."
(you can throw the parable of the vineyard owner that hired the guys in right here. Matt 20:1-16)
If He's just talking about His children of Israel there, like LOTC keeps saying about the other verses I use...then His chosen people can fall? The wicked that God hates can become righteous? The righteous can lose their righteousness? Hmm..."God hates the sin, but not the sinner" must slightly wrong. So lets rewrite it. "God hates the sinner and the sin until the sinner repents and believes..." Why does God want Him to repent? God wants the sinner to repent so He can love Him.
Um...for God so loved the world? I know...again...but you did say that "it very rarely translates as the "whole world'". Fine. Rarely. Maybe this is one of those rare times. But I like how you pull out the definition that fits your point. Good job. I also notice...it's like the 8th one...don't they list definitions in order of use? The 5th one is the one I like. It's only fair that I get to pull out my favorite also.
**People like DontHitThatMark go by emotions and not by God's Word. Either it's correct or it's not.**
**In your unconverted state, you can honestly have faith in yourself to seek God, when the Bible says that no one seeks after God?**
I guess I have to defend my honor here. Lol...
Unconverted? Only God knows my heart. But I'm glad you think you do. It kinda brings out my point. I hope you didn't mean that. And I am not being politically correct. I'm trying to be biblically correct. Emotions? Me? Wow...how long have you known me again? You know what? I'll give you some phone numbers of people that know me. Ask them if I'm emotional. You'll be surprised. Now, there's quite a bit I could say for revenge here. But you know what? Brother? I forgive you for judging me.:buddies: I'll suppress my hugely emotional speech I had planned. I was really looking forward to crying though...how about a hug?:ROFL:
Last point...this is for manofgod. Soft and spoiled American view? Ok....how about the fact that you're predestined and you can't fall? I believe in free will...do you have any idea how much harder that is? I strive everyday to keep from killing myself...the only reason I'm alive is God's grace that covers my sin. You get to go to heaven no matter what, because "God loves you more then me". You're the spoiled one. You get the free pass. You get the door prize. I have to keep working at it. True. We aren't saved by works, but we are justified by them. If we love God we do what He wants. If we don't do want He wants, then we don't really love Him. If we don't love Him we aren't saved. "Arminians" have it hard. I still don't like that label though. Anyway...I believe God loves me just as much as you, and I believe we'll both make it if we truly believe what we know. Apparently I'm unconverted and lost though...poor me...
And also, lol....I guess saying "I WIN" after a forum post means...you win...so....:winksmile:
Well,DHTM,That was a very good post!I actually enjoyed that one!LOL.You do have some pretty good points!Your right,I dont know everything,and im sorry if I sound like I Do.The truth is,Im always learning,thats the beauty of being a stupid human!And I deeply apologize if I ever questioned yours,or anyones salvation!I have no right!Also,I appreciate your tone,mine can be a bit harsh sometimes,Ill chalk that up to passion for the lord,but honestly,its pride,and its wrong!You know,Its kinda funny,You see,I work nights.And tonight I felt the lord convicting me of some things,mainly pride and unforgiveness....ect.Then,I get home and read your posts,and Im convicted more,Oh dont get me wrong,Im still a predestination guy,the evidence is too strong in my opinion!But that guy Paul you were talkin about,(who,by the way,wrote most of the new testament)really stresses love for the brethren,otherwise,we are just like the disciples arguing over whos greater in the kingdom.LOL.
I do have some personal reasons,however,for my calvinist beleifs.Mainly,I never wanted anything to do with god,I rejected him all of my life!I was womanizing,bar brawling drunk,as evil as you can imagine!Nothing but cursing in my mouth,and a sneer on my face,if you were a dude,I was ready to punch you in the face,If you were a women,I was trying to sleep with you!No one wanted anything to do with me,including my own family!I did Two stretches in prison,That still didnt calm me down all the way,I begged god for death,Took a hundred sleeping pills,and was even run over by a car!The doctors said theyd never seen anything like it,that I should be dead,They dont know how I survived!I cursed god so many times you wouldnt beleive,anyway,long story short,god shoved salvation down my throat,and when the fog cleared,He allowed me to destroy myself,and my life so thoroughly,that their was nowhere left to turn,so I turned to him,and everything turned around,like freakin magic,Oh theres been lots of struggles,dont get me wrong,Its not easy diggin out of a deep pit,unless you have a supernatural shovel,and yes,so many miracles happened in my life,its insane!But i geuss my point is,I tryed to die!!Many times!I couldnt!And I also Know!I didnt turn to him!He grabbed me and dragged me to him!So your right,I certainly dont know everything about my lord,but i do know,if your his,your his,and thats it!you couldnt do anything about it if you wanted too,and Im so thankful for that today!And im not proud of it(or at least Im trying not to be)God hates pride so much!So theres my emotional reasons LOTC is gonna jump on me for that.LOL.But Ive also been convinced intellectually,after much study,it just so happens that my doctrines happen to match my life experience!You seem like a nice guy,and your not a stupid man,by no means!Ill call you brother anytime,Even the your just a LITTLE OFF THE MARK LOL:ROFL:
I appreciate that. And I hope you can see that I don't want to necessarily shake your belief right now. I want to see every christian with a steadfast spirit, but also a humble taste for the knowledge of the truth. It's not wrong to hear other viewpoints. It's actually wrong to ignore them. Listen. Compare them with scripture. Grow in your faith. I know we have been trying to prove our points to each other, but all this discussion has done is drive me into the bible and give me more faith in my beliefs. It's kind of beautiful. We can have friendly discussion without hating each others guts. And like I've said before, who knows who we might help by putting the proofs of our belief out there? Maybe somebody that's losing their faith will say "...maybe I've been looking at God the wrong way all this time...". Hopefully they'll convert to mine of course.:goofball:. But who knows? It's our duty to prove our faith, so others can see our witness, and our love for God. "Look what God has done in my life, it's never too late for Him to help you. Never." And as Christians, the more we walk in God's truth, the more He will bless our spiritual life. There's always more depth. God's word is amazing. But My biggest point is...don't reject someone's belief only for the reason that it doesn't agree with yours. If all Christians did that we'd still be catholic. Reject it if it has no biblical truth. I'll be the first to admit. Yours has some biblical truth...but I believe mine has more. So far the only one that has gotten me upset is LOTC's re-translation of the bible. Every time I bring a verse that proves my point he takes it back to the Greek and it ends up meaning the opposite every time? I can't compete with that. I won't compete with it. I believe God's word is truth. I don't believe we should pick out our favorite definition. He said it himself..."the word "all" doesn't ALWAYS mean "all"....the word "world" SOMETIMES means just a certain people" I looked it up in the Greek too. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. How does he know which time is which? The definition that the KJV has written in it is before the one he picked, but he skips right to the one he wants. If his definition is right then we should all burn our KJV bibles. Because they read the opposite of what they mean. I for one believe God can protect His word during translation. If He wanted it to say "certain people" I think He would have made it that way. Because He's...you know....all powerful? And He wants His word to go to every kindred, nation, tongue and people? English people included? What do you think?:boxing::Ok....rant over...
I appreciate that. And I hope you can see that I don't want to necessarily shake your belief right now. I want to see every christian with a steadfast spirit, but also a humble taste for the knowledge of the truth. It's not wrong to hear other viewpoints. It's actually wrong to ignore them. Listen. Compare them with scripture. Grow in your faith. I know we have been trying to prove our points to each other, but all this discussion has done is drive me into the bible and give me more faith in my beliefs. It's kind of beautiful. We can have friendly discussion without hating each others guts. And like I've said before, who knows who we might help by putting the proofs of our belief out there? Maybe somebody that's losing their faith will say "...maybe I've been looking at God the wrong way all this time...". Hopefully they'll convert to mine of course.:goofball:. But who knows? It's our duty to prove our faith, so others can see our witness, and our love for God. "Look what God has done in my life, it's never too late for Him to help you. Never." And as Christians, the more we walk in God's truth, the more He will bless our spiritual life. There's always more depth. God's word is amazing. But My biggest point is...don't reject someone's belief only for the reason that it doesn't agree with yours. If all Christians did that we'd still be catholic. Reject it if it has no biblical truth. I'll be the first to admit. Yours has some biblical truth...but I believe mine has more. So far the only one that has gotten me upset is LOTC's re-translation of the bible. Every time I bring a verse that proves my point he takes it back to the Greek and it ends up meaning the opposite every time? I can't compete with that. I won't compete with it. I believe God's word is truth. I don't believe we should pick out our favorite definition. He said it himself..."the word "all" doesn't ALWAYS mean "all"....the word "world" SOMETIMES means just a certain people" I looked it up in the Greek too. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. How does he know which time is which? The definition that the KJV has written in it is before the one he picked, but he skips right to the one he wants. If his definition is right then we should all burn our KJV bibles. Because they read the opposite of what they mean. I for one believe God can protect His word during translation. If He wanted it to say "certain people" I think He would have made it that way. Because He's...you know....all powerful? And He wants His word to go to every kindred, nation, tongue and people? English people included? What do you think?:boxing::Ok....rant over...
For God so loved the world.......Seems to me this was more than just people who had repented. Then there is Romans 5:9. To me that stops the argument about God not loving sinners. It says God demonstrates His own love for us in, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Seems like He kind of likes us, even when in sin.
Like my brother above, I was determined to do wrong with my life. I came to God in prison, kicking and screaming all the way. I didn't want to be a believer, but thank God, He knew what I needed. I am now an ordained minister, and Associate Pastor in my Baptist Church.
I don't agree with the writings of John Calvin, but find that Spurgeon's form of Calvinism is very close to truth. He incorporates free will into his teachings, and it is easy to see why they called him the Prince of Preachers.
I have really enjoyed reading all your comments. I may not agree with everything, but everyone seems well read and thoughtful.
Then you have not studied all of John Calvin's work. The truest form of Calvinism does not deny free will, it only states that it is limited to a degree.
Furthermore, "Calvinism" is just a theological term, and its doctrines existed before his time.
Finally, I think all of us are aware of God's magnificent love, and I don't disagree with you. That's why any of us can come to salvation. My point is simply that in this age people are so quick to dismiss the wrath of God, and they need to realize that it is equally important as an attribute of God. God loves and He hates, so don't put Him in a little box.
I used to be one of those people who paraded God's love around all day but was never saved. I thought I could sin all I want since Jesus died for me. After having been TRULY saved though, I can say that I was completely wrong. It's a shame that no one ever taught me the doctrine of assurance...
Great post. No, I have not studied much of Calvin's work. Only what was required for Bible College. I have read Spurgeon extensively, though, and love his theology.
To me, and you may not agree, Armenianism is legalism. It is us still thinking our actions are important enough to God to affect our salvation. If that were the case, then why did Jesus have to die?
Well....this is the third time I've posted this today....
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!"
And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Acts 16:31 Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.
John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 11:25-26 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Jeremiah 29:13: And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Acts 16:30-31� . . . �Sirs, what must I do to be saved?� And they said, �Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .� �
John 1:12 �But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name�
Romans 10:13 �For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Matthew 10:32 �Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven�
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world(satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
None of those say "You are saved, now believe". We have something to do. We must believe to be saved. We must have faith in Jesus's sacrifice. We must call on His name. We must live like Him after we believe, or we will be lost. That is my belief. And I know some of you will say "oo, big man will get a statue in heaven"...but I don't think you understand the definition of a free gift...nothing we do can earn it...it's already free. It's already ours. It's available to everyone. We just have to have faith that it applies to us. There's no work involved. It's like realizing something exists for the first time. A knowledge of the truth. Just because we finally realize it doesn't mean it creates salvation. It was there already. This is what I think Jesus was trying to tell Nicodemus. We can't see it come or go because it's always there. We just have to believe it's there to be born again. We have to have faith that our salvation exists. Like the first person that realized the world wasn't flat. But after we're saved it does take work. Not because we're trying to earn salvation, but because we're saved and we love God. If we love Him we should keep His commandments. We're supposed to at least give our best effort to walk as Jesus walked. Faith without works is dead. You may call me legalistic, but Christians should love God enough to try to do what He asks. Unfortunately, I do know it's not enough because I fail constantly. But God's grace is sufficient. I just have to stay on the path(have faith). If I trip on a stumbling block, hopefully it will put me on my knees so I'll already be in the position to ask for forgiveness and the strength to get back up. But I've seen many people that have lost their faith. They no longer believe that God can forgive them for what they have done, or they just don't care. So they are lost because they stopped believing. Does any of this make sense? I think the bible is very clear that we have to choose to believe first, then we are saved. If we don't believe, or if we lose our faith...then we're lost. That eliminates a lot of predestination theology. I don't believe "having faith" earns our salvation...the bible doesn't count it as a "work". But we have to have faith before we're saved by grace.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph. 2:8).
We have to have faith that grace covers our sin before God will apply it to us. Where does the bible say that God makes us believe? Or where does it say that we're saved before we believe? It just seems like Calvanists have a chain of beliefs that are wrong. I suppose I should go for the root. Adams Sin.
