Author	Thread: total depravity
Admin	total depravity Posted : 9 Sep, 2009 03:40 PM Sometimes I wonder if some of you understand how offensive we are to god,and that this is the first,and absolutly nescesary step to salvation,because of the fall,we are utterly sinful,incapable of pleasing god,even after salvation,itsthe rightousness of christ that the lord sees that keeps us from judgement,yes god loves us,but not because of anything we ever do,our attitudes should be complete humility,and thankfulness,never proud or boastful,I just dont want our lord turned into some grandfatherly type person that just thinks we are so cute no matter what we do.God is perfect love,but he is also perfectly holy,and just,We need a balance in our lives,the only prayer jesus ever taught us is the lords prayer,full of reverance and thankfulness,emphasizing gods will being done,some christians ,it seems would insert the phrase my will be done, In Christ Steven Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 12 Sep, 2009 10:56 PM Well...I don't consider myself an arminian either...never even heard of that before this website. I believe what I've read out of the bible. And I have no denominational loyalty to speak of. If I find a church that believes the bible more clearly then the one I'm in now, I will join up faster then you can say "Bible truth". I believe being a member of a denomination is important, but I also believe that as Christians we should always be learning. The moment we stop learning is the moment we stop growing. Just compare scripture with scripture. Anybody can do it. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 13 Sep, 2009 01:38 PM I can say the same thing... I don't call myself a "Calvinist", because the Scriptures vindicate themselves. You just need to study them enough to understand. If you find a fallacy in one place, you have to throw out your doctrine, and that's what happens when you apply the theological view of Arminianism. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 13 Sep, 2009 02:07 PM I do study. But I just see more proof for my beliefs when I do. You haven't done a very good job of explaining yours to me, because I see twisted scriptures. I see you picking definitions when scriptures don't agree with you. I see your other false beliefs. All that implies that you could be very wrong. The only place it talks about predestination is in Paul's writings, and the bible specifically says to be careful of his writings. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 13 Sep, 2009 04:46 PM Be careful of pauls writings?This my friend,shows your complete lack of understanding of theology all together!You cant throw out half the new testament to suit your false ideas!Thats where the problems start!Thats how people like Ellen White start!The scripture is inspired by god "all of it"!It is inerrant.You cant start saying,well,maybe this book shouldnt have been in there or this one.God has kept the bible consistant for 2000 years,despite many challenges to cannon!Now I see your main problem(besides gross misinterpretation of scripture . In Christ Steve Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 13 Sep, 2009 05:36 PM Now, now...don't jump the gun. I said "be careful". Not "throw it out". Lol...you guys are funny. I'm saying that the bible itself says "BE CAREFUL" of Paul's writings, because they are hard to understand and unlearned and unstable men will twist them. I've said before, that it could be me twisting them, but it could also be you. Are you so sure? I hate to be rude, but doesn't it seem like you and LOTC kinda lash out a lot? Look, I stand by the whole bible completely. Seems like if predestination was a valid belief that you could find more proof in other books of the bible. And I don't see them. I find too many that contradict it. Maybe you guys can point them out to me. Save me some time. :peace::peace: Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 13 Sep, 2009 05:37 PM 2 Peter 3:16 if you need to see it again. Post Reply
klmartin62 View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 13 Sep, 2009 08:07 PM DHTM, Why do we Have an Abrahamic covenant? Did Abraham get up one day and decide he would like to have a relationship with God? Or did God choose Abraham? Were the Israelites know as the people who had enough sense to choose God, or as God's chosen people? I can go on all day, but you get the point. God did not choose those that were around Abraham, why? We don't know why. We can speculate, but the fact is, God will do whatever God wants, and who are we to question Him? This is what I believe the Bible teaches. Does it seem fair to us? No, but we don't know the whole story, do we? Paul explained these things well, but the concept begins in Genesis. It is the theme throughout the Bible. Food for thought, Leon Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 14 Sep, 2009 12:29 AM I know what you're saying, But just because God chooses someone doesn't mean He forces them. This comes back to the influence thing. I believe God knows our choices, and plans accordingly. But your predestination belief(or at least most Calvinist's belief) says that once a man is chosen he cannot fall away. Or that he doesn't choose to believe in Jesus's Salvation. And there are too many verses in the bible that either say it plainly, or that give examples of someone who was saved and became lost, or someone who was lost, and believed to the saving of their soul. My point is...that while God may choose someone...He doesn't force them to choose Him. He just knows they will. And He might even know that they will fall away later. But it's all in His plan. And His plan allows for free choice because the bible says we have a choice. We have something we need to do. We have to believe to be saved. We have to have faith to be saved. But if we sin willingly, we can lose our salvation. God knows what we will do so He can choose us...but He doesn't force it. That's my belief. Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say "Come!" And let the one who hears say, "Come!" And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. Acts 16:31 Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 11:25-26 I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Jeremiah 29:13: And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Acts 16:30-31� . . . �Sirs, what must I do to be saved?� And they said, �Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .� � John 1:12 �But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name� Romans 10:13 �For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.� Matthew 10:32 �Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven� Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. 1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 39And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. None of those say "You are saved, now believe". We have something to do. We must believe to be saved. We must have faith in Jesus sacrifice. We must call on His name. We must live like Him after we believe, or we will be lost. That is my belief. And I know some of you will say "oo, big man will get a statue in heaven"...but I don't think they understand the definition of a free gift...nothing we do can earn it...it's already free. It's already ours. We just have to have faith that it applies to us. There's no work involved. It's like realizing something exists for the first time. A knowledge of the truth. Just because we finally realize it doesn't mean it creates salvation. It was there already. This is what I think Jesus was trying to tell Nicodemus. We can't see it come or go because it's always there. We just have to believe it's there to be born again. We have to have faith that our salvation exists. Like the first person that realized the world wasn't flat. But after we're saved it does take work. Not because we're trying to earn salvation, but because we're saved and we love God. If we love Him we should keep His commandments. We're supposed to at least give our best effort to walk as Jesus walked. You may call me legalistic, but Christians should love God enough to try to do what He asks. Unfortunately, I do know it's not enough because I fail constantly. But God's grace is sufficient. I just have to stay on the path(have faith). If I trip on a stumbling block, hopefully it will put me on my knees so I'll already be in the position to ask for forgiveness and the strength to get back up. But I've seen many people that have lost their faith. They no longer believe that God can forgive them for what they have done, or they just don't care. So they are lost because they stopped believing. Does any of this make sense? :prayingm::prayingm: Post Reply
klmartin62 View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 14 Sep, 2009 09:46 AM Good post. Let me address a couple of points. As for those who have fallen away, for whatever reason, we don't know what the condition of that persons salvation is, then or at the end. We love the Lord so much that we get caught up in this do-good mentality, but our righteousness is as filthy rags to a Holy God. Most of us have never done a single thing in our lives that meets God's standard of perfection, and we never will. Our human condition stops us from getting there, so all the trying to do good in the world will not change where we are with God. It is not about us. We are not that important. Next, in our current position here on earth, there is nothing good about us. We are evil to the core. The only good thing about us is Jesus in us. So, if we are not chosen, how could we "choose" God? We don't want good and right, we want evil and crazy. The only thing that makes us crave that relationship with God is, He drew us just like the Bible says. Blessings, Leon Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	total depravity Posted : 14 Sep, 2009 11:27 AM That's absolutely what I believe. God draws us. The bible does teach that. But God forces us? Don't think so. There are only a couple of verses that imply it, while there are a ton that say there is something we need to do. Salvation cannot be earned. I totally agree. But do you love Jesus? Do you have to love Jesus to be saved? Does God force you to love Him? The bible says we have to love Jesus to be saved and walk like Him to show ourselves approved. Is that "earning" our salvation? It's not "be saved and then love Jesus." That's backwards. God's free gift saves us if we believe it exists. After we are recreated through His grace we become a new creature that should strive to please God in everything. A new spiritual creature that wars with the old flesh. Striving to break our own selfish hold on ourselves. No longer under the law, but not apart from it. It is supposed to be written on our hands and in our hearts. Meaning we should try to think and do what is according to God's character/law. If that is legalism then, yes...I'm legalistic because I believe in the bible, but I don't believe our works save us. Grace makes us perfect in God's eyes, and as long as we avoid willing sin then the law does not apply to us anymore. Where there is no willing sin, there is no need for a law. Grace is sufficient to save us. Our works don't save us. Our works can lose us though. If we don't serve God, then we don't get eternal life. It's that simple. And don't try and tell me that we don't have to obey God to have eternal life...because the bible texts would probably crush you:laugh:. :peace::peace: Post Reply

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