Thread: IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
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IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 23 Aug, 2009 09:41 AM
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
The answer as you will shortly learn, is "NO!"
There has been much debate over the tongues of what must be referred to a "modern pentecostalism!" We are not going to conduct an indepth exhaustive exposition of the subject of tongues, at this point, for it is not necessary to prove this one point, and that is, "modern pentecostals cannot all speak with 'THE GIFT OF TONGUES!'"
Please, allow me to explain.
First of all, I was in what may be termed "a pentecostal church," for about 11 years, so I know all about the subject of tongues, and that the scripture is VERY CLEAR about the spiritual gifts, and that "the tongues" that all pentecostals are encouraged to get, in order to demonstrate that one is "filled with the spirit," cannot be biblical, or valid.
Here is the passage Paul wrote, when he was confronted with the same, "so-called pentecostals," then, as we are now. There were men who claimed to represent the Holy Spirit, but something was very wrong with their tongues, as it is still the case, today. So-called charismatic or spirit-filled churches were springing up, claiming that they were pentecostals, with the gifts of the spirit; and so Paul addressed the administration of the gifts of the Spirit, and as you are about to learn, Paul shotdown their claims, saying that there was no such thing as everyone having the gift of tongues, at the same time.
"NOW THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF GIFTS, BUT THE SAME SPIRIT. AND THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF ADMINISTRATION, BUT THE SAME LORD. AND THERE ARE DIVERSITIES OF OPERATIONS, BUT IT IS THE SAME GOD WHICH WORKETH ALL IN ALL. BUT THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SPIRIT IS GIVEN TO EVERY MAN TO PROFIT WITHAL. FOR TO ONE IS GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT THE WORD OF WISDOM; TO ANOTHER THE WORD OF KNOWLEDGE; TO ANOTHER FAITH BY THE SAME SPIRIT; TO ANOTHER THE GIFTS OF HEALING; TO ANOTHER THE WORKINGS OF MIRACLES; TO ANOTHER PROPHECY; TO ANOTHER DISCERNING OF SPIRITS; TO ANOTHER DIVERS KINDS OF TONGUES; TO ANOTHER THE INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES: BUT ALL THESE WORKETH THAT ONE AND SELFSAME SPIRIT, DIVIDING TO EVERY MAN SEVERALLY AS HE WILLS!" [I Cor 12:4-11]
The GIFT OF TONGUES, was administered, SEVERALLY as the Spirit was want to do, therefore, it was NEVER GIVEN TO ALL BELIEVERS - in any church, which is what the pentecostals, each claim they possessed, in Paul's day, in every church, and that they still claim to this day!
So, you see, not all pentecostals cant have the same gift, for they were never adminstered in such a way!
Not all pentecostals are in fact, even true believers, as is evident by this passage where Jesus Christ, Himself says: "NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, WILL ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN;BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? AND IN THY NAME CAST OUT DEVILS? AND IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? AND I WILL PROFESS UNTO THEM, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY!" [Matt 7:21-23]
Please notice that Jesus did not say that He would tell them to "depart because we had a problem," or because "you backslid"; He said that He will tell them that He "NEVER KNEW THEM!" For they are not of God, and their claims to "the gifts of the Spirit," are "iniquity," to Him, and His Father, which is in heaven!
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 26 Aug, 2009 12:25 AM
There are two types of speaking in tongues, where if done in public, yes you must have an interperter. But the other type is done solely as a prayer to God - a way for the Holy Spirit to intercede our prayers for us when we may not know what exactly to pray for. I never thought I would be able to speak in tongues or had that gift until I heard a woman speaking about how we all have the gift we just need to receive it. She mentioned how you just open your mouth and start speaking in tongues. So I did and I did! It was the most amazing experience I have ever felt as a believer. I prayed in tongues for a good hour crying and praising God that He had granted this gift to me. Now when I pray in tongues I feel this amazing sense of peace and I know my prayer is even better than I could have put into words myself. I have also heard that Satan can't understand that language, but I don't know where that would be in the bible. Has anyone else heard that?
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 26 Aug, 2009 10:23 AM
well, if you have noticed anything about me, and I've been around here for a year now, it's that I don't speak christianese, I tend to play devils advocate, and I usualy have a pretty off the wall perspective on things.
Let me tell you my story in regards to this.
I was.. what like 18 or 19? and I went to a lutheran HS and was saved in a bible church, so people speaking in tounges was like... Whatttt??? I was in a band with two guys who were charismatic, and I went to church with them alot, and I had the occasion to hear tounges ALOT. I still couldnt like.. accept it. So I went on this youth retreat, (my band played the music for it) and i was talking to the youth pastor late one night at the retreat and I told him I just didnt believe tounges still existed. (long story) and he said, well, lets try this alex, let me pray over you and lets see what happens? I'm game.. I'll try anything. So he laid hands on me and I sat there and after a few minutes opened my mouth to say *I don't think anything is happening....* and it came out in gibberish... I could not and I mean NOT speak english. I knew exactly what I was saying, but I could not get english to come out of my mouth. I speak 4 languages, but this was not one of them. So this lasted for almost an hour. and I was running around through the snow singing at the top of my lungs in some other language.
Since then, I have only been able to pray in tounges on a handful of occasions, when I was all out of words. but it was legit.
I was a skeptic, but God floored me, and I believe now.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 26 Aug, 2009 08:26 PM
ProudlyCanadian - thanks for your great post and I agree with your bullet points.
ThatJennyGirl - very, very excellent point you made and I completely agree with you. We must distinguish between the gift of tongues, which is intended to be complemented by interpretation in the congregation, and tongues as a private prayer language for the personal edification of the believer.
Tristan - beautiful, beautiful testimony and it is somewhat similar to mine.
I went to a Calvinist Bible College where most of the teaching was anti-charismatic. Their beliefs not only sought to eliminate tongues as a possibility for believers but also healing, prophecy, miracles, and deliverance. While I was at the college, there was a tiny group of Pentecostals and they told me about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues and I must say I was sceptical but I did ask God for it if it was His will.
A couple of years later after graduation, while I was attending an anti-charismatic church, a charismatic man met me there (I don't know why he was attending) and befriended me. Long story short, I was strugging badly in my walk and I confessed to him my situation. He prayed with me and layed his hands on me and said - "you got it - now go home and pray in tongues."
Well, I can't say I had great faith and that night nothing happened. The next night I am in prayer in my room by myself in the dark and suddenly, after an immense presence filled the room, I can't speak - I can't move my mouth to form proper English. I felt God himself speak to me and told me to quit struggling and just relax and trust Him. Then it began to flow like a river and I must have prayed in tongues - several types of tongues - for the next 4 or 5 hours.
Now - nobody and I mean NOBODY can take this away from me. I know it is real. I was not taught it. I was not imagining it. I was not even in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church at the time. I was alone. I was not given to act like this in any way before. I was not on any drugs. IT HAPPENED and IT IS REAL.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 05:31 AM
This is my testimony on tongue speaking.
I accepted Christ together with my father around 17-18 years ago and I went to a Charismatic church/. They speak in tongue and I speak in tongue too. However, something keep bothering me, that is the teaching that all believers shall speak in tongue. Although, I can speak in tongue but my experience didn't count. Scripture counts more than my experience. I keep asking for the scripture that said that the gift is available to everyone. I did not find any, in fact what the Holy Spirit showed me is that the gift is unique, not available to everyone and it is wrong to keep pursuing the gift. Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts...
Remember anything not from faith is sin. And we were filled with Holy Spirit once we believed in Christ, and no hand laying is required. "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Ephesians 1:13. So baptism of the Holy Spirit occur once you believe not by laying hands. This is what the Bible says.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 10:14 AM
Sorry Daniel but I think you are wrong about that and I have already explained myself in two posts and really don't feel like repeating it.
As my testimony and the testimony of millions clearly demonstrates - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate and latter work of grace than conversion. I was a Christian for several years before I received. The apostles were believers in Christ and even had faith enough to cast out demons but did not yet have the Holy Spirit.
God does not show favoritism. Why would he only give good gifts to some and not others?
The Word of God is clear - The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is separate from conversion and it is evidenced by speaking in tongues. It is usually imparted by the laying on of hands OR as in the Upper Room, by a mighty work of God on a group.
Do you want to follow the teachings of man or the teachings of the Holy Spirit? It is the Spirit that enables us to understand scripture - not our intellect. See 1 Cor 2:10-16
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 11:17 AM
Hi Everyone,
This topic is one that comes up for debate regularly. One of the main problems is how so many take the scriptures and out of context and also do not pay any attention to the Grammatical Hermeneutic. Let's examine this issue.
If you look throughout scripture you will discover an interesting consistency. Except under two specific circumstances, in each and every case, no one ever received the Gifts of tongues and certain other supernatural gifts UNLESS ONE OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF JESUS CHRIST personally laid hands upon them or was present. Below is a very clear passage that demonstrates my point.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Philip had supernatural powers but yet HE WAS UNABLE TO PASS THOSE POWERS ON. He could use them but did not have the specific power to distribute the gifts he received. Why? Read below.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
This takes a little discernment here. When they are talking about receiving the Holy Spirit they are not referring to initial salvation where everyone receives the Holy Spirit. They are talking about receiving gifts that the Holy Spirit would impart to them THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF HANDS by one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 THEN THEY LAID HANDS ON THEM, and they received the Holy Spirit.
No do not miss this extremely important observation the Simon made.
18 And when Simon saw THAT THROUGH THE LAYING ON OF THE APOSTLE'S HANDS the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
Simon observed that the Apostles of Jesus Christ had a specific power that no one else had and that was through the laying on of the Apostles hands the Holy Spirit gave supernatural gifts. The Holy Spirit decided which gifts to impart which the Apostles were the conduit by which the Holy Spirit worked.
After the Apostles OF Jesus Christ died, there were no more distributions of the supernatural gifts from the Holy Spirit. History is very clear about this.
Here is another example:
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers,
10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I MAY IMPART SOME SPIRITUAL GIFT, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.NKJV
The Roman Church was probably started by someone like Philip,who had heard the Gospel, converted and was evangelizing. It is interesting that this church had not received any "supernatural gifts" from the Holy Spirit. Notice above that Paul made it clear that he wanted to go to them so that "he could impart some spiritual gift".
There were gifts that the Roman church had (Rom 12) but when you compare the gifts in the Corinthian Church that Paul has started we can see a significant difference in the type of gifts. The Corinthian church was given supernatural gifts while the Roman church was only exercising natural gifts.
So what does the overwhelming evidence of scripture tell us concerning supernatural gifts? That the Bible only endorses that these gifts were given by the Holy Spirit exclusively through the laying on of the hands of the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ or least while they were present. That is the mode of distribution God chose and it was to confirm and establish the preaching of the Apostles as being witnesses to the teachings of Christ and His resurrection. Let's also examine Mark 16.
Mar 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Above we have a general application to all who believe and are Baptized will be saved. Below the Grammar will change a little bit and in the Greek it is more evident.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
The Grammar in 17 & 18 is dealing with "those who believe" as being those who believed at that time. In other words those who received the direct preaching of the Apostles at that time. This is not applicable for us today as the Grammar in the Greek does not allow for any other interpretation. If this applied to us today then any one of us could pick up a deadly snake and once bitten would not be harmed and we could drink deadly poison and not be harmed. Anyone here dumb enough to try picking up a Green Momba and see once you are bitten if you are harmed or not? How about drinking some deadly poison like a glass of cyanide? Would you like that straight up or on the rocks? If you do it you will die so Do NOT do it.
Additionally all of us would be able to lay hands on the sick and heal them instantly. All of us without exception.
19 So then, after the Lord had SPOKEN TO THEM, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working WITH THEM and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.
Notice in 20 where the grammar now refers back to the Apostles. "the Lord working with THEM and confirming the word through the accompanying signs." The Lord was working with the APOSTLES and the supernatural signs accompanied the Apostles in order to confirm "THE WORD". In other words the signs were to demonstrate that the Apostles had the authority from God and the power to establish the Churches.
If you want one of the best in depth studies of this issue go to this web site. My Pastor wrote several articles and they are very good. He also breaks it down in the Greek as well so you can better understand.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 11:45 AM
Dear kdhny11
Ok, the way you explain verses, twisted the Word of God. And according to the explanation you gave, then the bible contains contradictory teachings.
The few verses you quoted to support tongue speaking is for everyone:
"And these signs will accompany those that believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in NEW TONGUES; ..."
(Mark 16:17)
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3)
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14:5)
"We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." (Rom 8:26)
Let's see, in Mark, it said that this is done in My name,your understanding of in My name is too superficial, read Ezekiel 13 on the explanation of in My name. It means only when God speak, you can speak, therefore, this does not mean everyone can speak at anytime. Then, these gifts are not meant for everyone. This is again confirmed in 1 Cor 13:8, "...whether they are tongues, they will cease..." And not every Christian have the other gifts mentioned here, such as Paul ask Timothy to ask for healing from God (since Timothy is sick). Therefore there is no reason to say that tongue speaking is meant for every Christian. So if tongue speaking is for everyone according to this verse, then you have to explained why healing does not work every time. Why other gifts was not given to everyone? This according to u this is favoritism also!
In 1 Cor 12:3 , it never said that it in other tongue. So there is no reason again to believe it is.
In 1 Cor 14:5 , I can't see how this show that everyone had the gift. In fact, it means the other way round. Paul said he would like.... but the fact is he can't because it is not God's will. That's is what you call in My name! Or else, Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit could simply write, all shall speak in tongue!
In Romans, you mistook groans as a tongue. Wrong. stenagmos is groaning, glOssa is tongue. Groans is not tongue. So no mentioning of a new tongue but groaning which is a sound.
Regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it is clearly written
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit," Ephesians 1:13.
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19
In Ephesians it is mentioned clearly that Having believed in the Gospel, then you will receive the Holy Spirit. So on what biblical ground you said that it is different in modern time? Later in the same book, it said there is only one baptism, yet you are trying to have 2 baptism! In Matthew, Jesus ask us to baptize people in the name of Holy Spirit already! Most probably you will take Acts as an example, but Acts is different! It is not doctrinal but a recording of history and never in Acts it is written that all people filled with Holy Spirit shall speak in tongue. Baptism and water and the Holy Spirit was differentiated in Acts and often they were baptized in water first due to John the Baptist not because they are 2 layers as claimed by you. Or else, how you explained Ephesians? Remember, John the Baptist was filled with Holy Spirit since in his mother womb but he never spoke in tongue.
No conversion w/o baptism of the Holy Spirit, that is inseparable! Baptism of the water is just a declaration of your faith to the world and your desire to imitate Jesus, it is symbolic but one will want to do it if the Holy Spirit is in you. Because of what John the Baptist said.
You claim if God only give good gifts to some and not others, He is showing favoritism. Then how you explain 1 Cor 12:11 where it is written that the gift is given as He (Holy Spirit) wills? By doing show, God is not showing favoritism, in fact He expect more from the people whom He had given more. Read The Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 12:38 PM
It is unbelievably presumptious of you "believers" to say that tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit are NOT for today. Unbelievably.
Why do I say that? Because you have to DEAL with the millions of people that do today speak in tongues and have experienced prophesying, healing, and other gifts. You have to deal with testimonies such as mine.
You can try to quote your way out if but if quoting scripture were the way to find truth we wouldn't have about - oh - 5,000 different denominations that call themselves Christian. Or is it 10,000 now? Anybody for 20,000?
Now there are only 3 possibilities if tongues is not for today.
1). Pentecostals are under mass hallucination
2). Pentecostals are demon possesed
3). Pentecostals are under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
It seems pretty easy to eliminate the first possibility since Pentecostals come from every socio-economic group, every culture, every nation, every age, every denomination, every race.
So you are left with only two possibilities and if you deny the third then you are essentiallly calling me and all my brethren demon possessed.
But this is obviously false as well because a house divided against itself will not stand and nobody can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.
So, there is only one sound conclusion and the anti-charismatic arguments are specious at best and blasphemous at worst.
