dear folks, i have my answer but since it seems as if theres a few differnet opinions about tongues bein a gift even amongst my fellow pentecostols.. id like to hear other folks opinions on this.. so do you believe tongues are a gift?
Bush256 - thank you for your comments and reply. Now I will in God's good grace answer.
You are very quick to throw out the word "heresy"! One should be very careful not to quickly brand things heresy. This is an ugly word and has been used for all sorts of evil in the past - by bishops and elders. It is a sign of being unwilling to listen to a separate point of view; it is a word of intolerance. We could both play the same game and I could brand your anti-Charismatic beliefs as heresy but I won't because it is counter-productive AND I do want to hear your point of view.
I went to a Calvinist Bible college back in the 80's so I know a bit about your belief system, which I have had to unlearn. I do not speak lightly of tongues because it is both thoroughly scriptural and my own personal experience. You, on the other hand, are not speaking from personal experience regarding tongues and I understand that.
Second, you seem to have a fear of anything mystical. Why? Mysticism is not a bad thing my friend. Not at all. We do not approach God through pure reason and logic and if this were so then we could not speak of having a relationship with Him. Love is mystical; it is not logical. The Holy Spirit is a mystical experience, not something we just quote scripture about and hope it is true. It is to be EXPERIENCED! Praise God! The Holy Spirit is referred to as fire, wind, oil, and water - these are all mystical experiences.
So, mysticism is not a dirty word - heresy is. :glow:
Now, as to your quoting of verse 14:5. Yes, Speaking in Tongues as a gift for the purpose of speaking to the congregation is a gift that only a few will have but I have already written two posts about this above that this is not the same things as a private prayer language. This is why I am at great pains on this thread to make a distinction because I know how some use such scriptures to deny tongues for today - such as you are trying to do.
Getting back to what I said - that I speak from personal experience. You seem to think and suggest that the millions of Christians today that speak and pray in tongues are making it all up somehow. I know that I received it while I was alone and having been indoctrinated with Calvinist thinking. I was not in a Pentecostal church when I received it but God had somebody come to pray for me and lay hands that I might receive and it happened the next day. There is no making this up. I know what I speak of. I am not speaking from theory.
To suggest as you say that the millions of Pentecostals are just going along making mumbo jumbo up is insanity and implies that God's House is divided against itself but we know that nobody can say "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor 12:3).
Also - I have said nothing about salvation. I have not once implied that those that do not pray in tongues are not believers or saved by grace. This is a red herring.
Further - there is no "learning" tongues. You either have it or you don't. The fact that you say that God should have showed us how to learn it if it were meant for everybody shows your misunderstanding of exactly what it is. There is no learning. It is spontaneous "groaning of the Spirit" as it says in Rom 8:26 - "We do not know how to pray but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with words that groans cannot express"
I will ignore your comments about the Pentecostals "springing up" 100 years ago. This is irrelevant and no Protestant denomination existed before 1517.
See Acts 19:1-7 for a clear delineation of John's baptism and the Baptism of The Holy Spirit. Paul asked the believers - and they were believers - if they had received the Holy Spirit yet and they said they did not. He layed his hands on them and they received it AND began to speak in tongues and prophesized. It is right there in scripture.
Anyway - I am not going to argue at length over this. As Jesus continually said - he who has an ear to hear let him hear.
I hope and pray that this has been beneficial to some and I appreciate the opportunity to publically discuss. I do not do it often because I usually converse on "secular" sites and do not want to "cast my pearls before swine," as Christ taught but since this is a Christian site we should be able to calmly and reasonably discuss.
dear folks , kdh , i agree with you in that theres a difference between the two tongues .. as we can see here in verse 10 that there are different tongues..
1 corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
as we look closer here we see that GOD says by way of paul, to another different kinds of tongues.. so we can see by that, that there will be a diversity of the gift of tongues.. and also we see that before each gift is mentioned the words to another.. so we can see by that, that there will also be a diversity in the way the gifts will be given out..
so one will get said gift and to another will get another said gift... so not everyone will get every gift.. although we do understand that some folks will be given combined gifts.. more than one.. as we can see here in 14:5 he who speaks with tongues unless he also interprets..
1 corinthians 14:5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
as we can see in these verses that SPIRIT distributes to each one individually as HE wills.
1 corinthians 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
and again we see here its not wrong to desire to have the gifts.. so it is ok to pray for them..
1 corinthians 14:1 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
but desire it for the right reason.. and not for selfish reasons.
1 corinthians 14: 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
this is the verse above where ii get a private prayer language from.. when youre speakin to GOD, youre either praising HIM , thankin HIM,or asking for something for another, or oneself..
so to sum it all up ,we see that one can have more than one different types of tongues.. one to edify the church with an interpreter and one as a private prayer language..that edifes the person. and even though theyre different theyre still a gift from GOD. plus not all peoples will have that same gift..
You are attacking Calvinism as if that's the issue. I believe in the gift of tongues, however people like Todd Bentley have been proven to be frauds. People like Kenneth Copeland were caught speaking in tongues and one of the translators said they were cursing God. As Christians we are called to expose the unfruitful works of darkness, reproving them.
Speaking in tongues is nice, but we shouldn't be trusting in experiences over the Bible. There is a Biblical balance. Secondly, Calvinism IS the most accurate representation of Scripture, whether you like it or not. Yes, many who hold the doctrine are very conservative, and I would ask that my brothers be a little more balanced, though it's better that than the alternative.
Ole Cattle, after reading your reply to my post, and rereading what I said, it seems as though it came out wrong. To answer your question of if it matters if you understand what you are saying when speaking in tongues, no not really. The Holy Spirit does know your heart, and as you said, knows your best interests. What I should have said is that a person should hope are seek to know the understanding of their prayer language and if they don't that is totally fine. As you stated we are not meant to know everything. I myself don't know everything I am saying, but God does give me the general idea or the overall picture of what I am praying for when I do speak in tongues. I have never operated in the gift of interpretation of tongues, but my father does, and it is very amazing how the words that are given out are in line with the message the pastor is preaching that very day in service. We've had instances where my dad would give out an interpretation, and it would match up directly with the message being preached, and the message had been prepared several weeks in advance. Also, to know or think on everything is not always good. Sometimes we need to go by faith, and lean on what god is telling us at the moment or we can miss a great opportunity to do God's work. So, I guess you don't have to know everything, just focusing and relying on God is enough. Honestly, if Moses would have actually thought out the process of freeing the Jews from Egypt, he probably would have never built up the nerve to do it. But he relied on God's power and not his power, and relied on faith. So, not knowing something is sometimes the best thing, because it really tests your faith to see if you will jump out. I have experienced some of the other gifts though, but I find that as far as my tongue language, that is more of a personal prayer language for me. Whereas my father operates in a prophetic tongue prayer language. It is just amazing what God can do, and how he uses different people to do his work no matter their gifts. In all things, God bless.
dear brutha, hey man i think its great that you have the gift of tongues.. and also great that your father has the gift of intrepretation of tongues.. any gift from GOD is wonderful thing..
