I apologize if I offend anyone, but I refuse to compromise God's Word for anything. The hearts of men are deceitfully wicked, so I cannot trust in emotionalism. The Bible says there seemeth a way right to a man but that leads to death. Don't trust in yourself, but God and His Word. Jesus is the head of His church. Notice God is always referred to in masculine form. Notice there are NO angels referenced ever in the Bible as being female in appearance. People are so indoctrinated by their society that instead of using the Bible as the source everything should be compared to, they use the world. It is an HONORABLE thing to be a women or man of God. Both roles are divine. As Christians, we are apart of the Bride of Christ.
Feminism is also a lie from the pit of Hell. Notice in our society the surge of homosexuality and immasculation of men? Women seem to always want a man they can control. This has nothing to do with equality. In today's society, we see that women have dominant rights over men, which is absurd. This movement is also tied to the Rockerfellers and their goal for a New World Order. Satan comes as an angel of light, so it's no surprise that he will use carnality and feel-good tactics to appeal to mass society.
The woman of virtue in scripture is very honorable. I mean, why wouldn't they want to be in that position, where they can take care of the children, and aid their husband? They are the divine caretakers and givers of life.
Satan wants to impale males from their birthright. And that is to be bold leaders. He loves to pervert the nature of God's creation. He hates God more than anything, and what better way than to cripple the spiritual leaders?
Does anyone have an opinion on this issue? This female friend of mine wants to be a pastor and I've been trying to show her through the Word that it's not ordained by God. So can her ministry be blessed by God? I know that God can work in spite of our mistakes, because He is rich in mercy.
I do agree with you all that women should be submissive and not teach men. That men rule over women. It is clearly written in the Bible starting from Genesis. And like you say, men these days have been emasculated and see sex as their way to manly hood. However, does this also mean that a women can't teach other women and children? It does say women are to raise the children. If one is called to preach, it may be to other women and children. I also struggle with the question of single women. Those who don't have children, what are they to do? How are they to live? How can they properly serve God? And although Feminism has had its negative consequences, it did give single women the ability to make a decent living and gave all women rights. Countries that go to far the other way, like Saudi Arabia and Iran suppress women. So much so that a single women can't work, can't go anywhere without a brother or father and if there is no man in the family then they are pretty much helpless. So there does need to be a balance.
dear alashara, if youll look at page 4 of the bible study forum. youll see a topic of women in ministry by rkteach.. in it youll find some discussion on what you are askin about here..
I believe women can be teachers/speakers in the church. Even have a sermon. BUT there is a pretty big difference between that, and being an ordained minister/elder when it comes to the Bible. There were women prophets, deaconesses, and there was even a woman judge. Miriam was third in command with the Israelites. But God reserves the head leadership for man for some reason(I'm not going to say which reason...because apparently "daggers from the eyes" can travel over the internet and kill me:goofball:)
hmmmm well all i can say is i follow my Lord with me it's about a relationship not a religion.now what if the Lord chose to speak to me from a women?myself and only me now not saying any of you is right or wrong but i will listen to the Holy Spirit.do not challange your God so who am i to tell my Lord who He can or can't use to talk to me?one thing for sure the Holy Spirit will let me know ,always does. be blessed
I mean, where does the bible put that women cannot pastor?
They can be prophets, as we see with Miriam and other places, they can preach, as we see in Paul when he tells them to wear something on their heads. If they were not to preach, why would he tell them about hiding their hair instead of telling them to shut up?
They can be deaconesses, and actually I see no place where they are kept from any position in the community.
There is no evidence in the bibe that says: A woman cannot be a pastor. Think of it, and then think about whether you follow the bible or the interpretation of some conservative old men that were afraid to loose control over their women.
I didn't mean anyone here with old conservative men, but maybe some people who invented the teaching of women not being able to pastor centuries back...
And hey, I'm not a non christian because I think women can pastor. Of course you can think and believe whatever you want and nobody forces you to go to a sermon with a female pastor.
All I want is to point out, that Paul did write of women preaching, and that women did fulfill important jobs in the bible, and did it good, although the societies were rather conservative and most probably would not have allowed a woman in that position.
So please, no offense, I just answered to the question asked.
dear tonne, none taken here.. feel free to disagree. you have a right to your beliefs same as i do or anyone for that matter.. thats what this place is for discussions on beliefs.. i didnt take it as you were bein disrespectful.. alls cool..
Well, I was kinda going by the verses that reserve the leadership position for a man. You can find those everywhere in the Bible. And since the Pastor is the spiritual leader of the church, like a husband is the spiritual leader ofthe family....I guess I just "assumed". Makes sense to me.
1 Timothy 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
1 Timothy 3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
The Great Mystery
14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
In Hebrew "ordination" means "to be authorized"...and since (good)men are supposed to have the authority...I don't think women can be ordained. In my church we have deaconesses, but they aren't ordained.
I showed you some of the verses I think explain my position. Now how about you? Can you find a verse that says women can be ordained ministers? And about the idea that it's an "old testament" tradition...Paul talks about reserving the leadership positions for men more then any other author in the Bible...and I think he's in the new testament.
P.S. I don't believe women should be silent in church all the time, just when it comes to having authority over a man. I think the Bible is pretty clear...oh...and please don't kill the messenger, the bible says it...not me...
Paul states clearly that he would not permit women to teach and have authority, that could be one point.
On the other hand we might just ask what we mean with having authority. If some man comes and tells me, he would be superior to me and I had to obey what he said, I would very likely just walk away, because there is no one that has authority over me but the Lord.
I see that women can prophecice, according to 1. Cor 11, so they can be telling me about the Lord and be right. So if I follow what they say, they have an authority, but then it is because I find that the Holy Spirit is talking throu them. And I believe that it is only the Holy Spirit that is talking when someone is preaching right. So wherever I find the Spirit, I follow as I would follow the Lord Jesus if He Himself spoke.
I must say I am pretty careful on that and do check. The Spirit is where He wants to be, according to the Gospel of John, so I would not reduce it to only men.
Of course Paul is writing about Bishops and Deacons in male grammar forms, but let's take in mind that the vast majority this was the normal case. He did not use a language like the political correctness nowadays, where in Germany I am not a student anymore, but a studying person, because student sounds like a male form (that is a problem we have in German but you don't in English). Paul might just not have thought about that someone might use those lines in his letter as evidence against female bishops and deacons.
Maybe we have just a different understanding of what a pastor is doing, I would not say that he has authority by himself but is given authority by people. So if Paul says that he would not allow women to have authority, he might have meant it in the case that he is along.
Another thing: In that kind of discussions I tend to be thinking loud, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Maybe it's just to do with how we see the scripture. But that's a whole different discussion...
A final question: Could you tell me the Hebrew word you have in mind for "to ordain"? I'd like to look it up.
