I was reading another forum post and it got me a little stirred up. Just wanted to throw something in here....the pharisees didn't just have the ten commandments....they had their own "pharisee" law that they were making up as they went(I think those were the laws Jesus was talking about...straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel), they had the laws of Moses...the one kept beside the ark of the covenant, on the outside...and written on a scroll(doesn't sound permanent does it? Deut. 31:23-29, and Col 2:14). The old testament Jewish nation had a direct covenant with God. God lived with them. They made some pretty strict laws because God cannot tolerate sin in His presence. They had a sacrificial system(and they kinda forgot this part), that pointed to the messiah and his work. When Jesus came and died, they didn't need to have all the sacrificial system stuff anymore right? Type had met anti-type.
However, God's ten commandment law was inside the golden ark, written on stone(sounds precious and permanent). It wasn't for the Jews only. You could see it at the beginning...in the Garden of Eden. He created the 7th day "sabbath" before He wrote the ten commandments down(if you read Gen. 2:1-4 and Exodus 20:11, they're almost the same...) . Cain was an outcast because he committed murder. This was before Jewish people existed. Back when they were just...human. I believe the Ten Commandment law is God's character, interpreted in a way that we could understand it in human terms...and so we could know what sin is, and try to avoid it(Rom. 7:7, Rom. 3:20.)
Anyway...long story short...I believe that the "laws and ordinances nailed to the cross"(Col. 2:14, Eph. 2:15) were the "Laws of Moses" that WERE only for the Jews(look at how much Paul preaches against forcing "circumcision", and "not eating food offered to idols", and so on...those are in the mosaic law, not the ten commandments), and the laws concerning the sacrificial system, Jewish holy days, and the prophets that pointed to Jesus, which He fulfilled(Matt. 5:17-19). I don't think it was the Ten Commandments. Later on in Matthew 5(verse 20 and on) he talks about several of the commandments and He says "Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" and "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Now I don't know about you...but keeping the spirit of the law sounds harder then just keeping it! And...I don't think it's possible for anyone to keep it perfectly. If it was, Jesus wouldn't have had to die. But I do think we're supposed to try. I don't think the ten commandments are any less important then God's own character...and I don't think they are any less invincible...it's just what I believe...don't take my word for it, look it up. You might even read 3 verses before and after the texts I gave to make sure it's in context. And then let's have a discussion!:yay:
:peace::peace:
Here's a few more random ones I found.
1 JOHN 5:3
JAM. 2:10-12
PSALMS 19:7
LUKE 16:17
...and part of the reason I'm bringing this up is because I find these conversations strange...help me out.
Me: Do you think we should pray to the sun?
Answer: What? No! Are you a freak?
Me: Do you think we should make or worship Idols?
Answer: No!
Me: Do you think we should take the name of God in vain?
Answer: No way!
Me: Do you think we should honor our father and mother?
Answer: Yes! As long as what they ask doesn't go against God!
Me: Do you believe stealing is wrong?
Answer: Definitely!
Me: Murder bad?
Answer: Oh yeah! Very bad! Life is precious!
Me: Adultery?
Answer: It's not right to abuse your sacred marriage vows! It's just wrong!
Me: Bear false witness?
Answer: Horrible! Even gossip and white lies are bad!
Me: Thou shalt not covet??
Answer: It's Bad! Evil! Sin!
Me: Should we remember the seventh day to keep it holy?
Answer: *Insert your answer here*
(The answer I get the most is "No, we're not under the law, it was done away with at the cross. Now we keep Sunday, to honor the Lord's resurrection." Or, "Everyday is my sabbath".)
AMEN!! its refreshing to see someone else talking the same way as I believe and have been trying to talk...of course you laid it out much more clearly than i did!!
Right right, I know grace saves us. Works don't. I Got it. Really. But we are not supposed to live in sin after we are saved, right?? Are we supposed to get better or worse? I just want to know...now that I'm a christian...what am I supposed to do? Live the way I was living? Or try not to sin and become more like Jesus? I'm already saved by grace. Now what? Lets say I'm a thief. I find Jesus, accept his grace by faith. Now I'm a christian thief. Should I stop stealing? Or just say, "Oh, I'm under grace now! What a nice car over there! I think I'll steal it and give the money to God!" Is that the sign of a christian? Would non-Christians be impressed by a christian that can't keep their own Lord's commands? Aren't we supposed to keep reproach from God's name? And if so...how far do we go? Should we try to keep...dare I say it...all of God's commands?!?! What!? Yeah I know!! What was I thinking! But if stealing is wrong and we shouldn't do it...what about murder? And if murder is wrong...what about bearing false witness? And if bearing false witne....you get the idea. Doesn't the bible say something like...James 4:17 "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." Don't Christians know what is good? I don't see anywhere in the bible where it says we shouldn't "keep" the commandments. I see that we're not under the "condemnation of the law". I see that we're not "judged by the law". Where does it say that we shouldn't keep the commands??
Matthew 7:21-23 �Not everyone who says to Me, �Lord, Lord,� shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, �Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?� And then I will declare to them, �I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!�
Hebrews 10:26-29 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses� law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Matt. 5:19 "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Matt. 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Here's one for old times sake:
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man�s all.
For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.
I understand that we're not under the law...I understand the law doesn't save us...but where does it say we shouldn't keep God's commands out of love for our Savior and Lord. "Oh...*tsk*he's just legalistic...such a sad christian...he thinks keeping the law will save him" No...God already saved me. Because I love God, I want to at least try to do what He asks me.
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
All of The Ten Commandments can be found in the New Testament...
* First Commandment: You shall have no other gods before Me
Matthew 4:10; 6:24; 22:37-38; Luke 4:8; Revelation 14:7.
* Second Commandment: Thou shalt not worship Idols
* Third Commandment: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain
Matthew 5:33-34; 1 Timothy 6:1; James 2:7.
* Fourth Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy
Matthew 12:8, 12; 24:20; Mark 1:21; 2:27-28; 6:2; Luke 4:16, 31; 6:5; 23:56; Acts 13:14, 42, 44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:1-2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:4, 9-10
* Fifth Commandment: Honour your father and your mother
Matthew 15:4; 19:19; Mark 7:10; 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:30; Ephesians 6:1-2; Colossians 3:20; 2 Timothy 3:2.
* Sixth Commandment: Thou shalt not Murder
Matthew 5:21-22; 19:18; Mark 7:21; 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 1:29; 13:9; Galatians 5:21; 1 Timothy 1:9; James 2:11; 1 Peter 4:15; 1 John 3:15; Revelation 9:21; 21:8; 22:15.
* Seventh Commandment: Thou shalt not commit Adultery
Matthew 5:27-28; 19:18; Mark 7:21; 10:11-12, 19; Luke 16:18; 18:20; Acts 21:25; Romans 1:29; 2:22; 7:3; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:9, 18; 10:8; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:3; Hebrews 13:4; James 2:11; 2 Peter 2:14; Jude 1:7; Revelation 2:14; 2:21-22; 9:21.
* Eighth Commandment: Thou shalt not Steal
Matthew 19:18; Mark 7:22; 10:19; Luke 18:20; Romans 2:21; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 6:10; Ephesians 4:28; 1 Peter 4:15; Revelation 9:21.
* Ninth Commandment: Thou shalt not bear false witness
Matthew 15:19; 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20; John 8:44; Acts 5:3-4; Romans 1:29; 13:9; Ephesians 4:25; Colossians 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:2; 2 Timothy 3:3; Revelation 21:8; 22:15.
* Tenth Commandment: Thou shalt not Covet your neighbor's things
Mark 7:22; Luke 12:15; Acts 20:33; Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9; 1 Corinthians 5:10-11; 6:10; Galatians 5:19; Ephesians 5:3, 5; 1 Timothy 6:10; 2 Timothy 3:2; 2 Peter 2:14; Hebrews 13:5.
dear folks, as we can see in the verses below that the ten commandments are in fact still in effect as much today as they were when they were written.. they never went away.. JESUS did give HIMSELF and HIS blood for a sacrifice for all who will come to ask forgiveness and repent and to believe in HIM.. yes we were given grace as we couldn't be perfect.. but as JESUS tells us the two greatest commandments and below we have paul telling us in romans how we can fulfill the law and that we are still to follow the commandments as he goes namin them off and shows us that by following the commandments we will be showing our love for GOD and our neighbor and that that's how we know that we know HIM.. so ya see in short we are to follow the commandments.. and we will be doin so by lovin our neighbors as ourselves.. with the exceptopns of we dont need the sacrificial laws now as JESUS did that one time for us.. and JESUS showed us that we can do good works on the sabbath.. and we dont kill anyone now for workin on the sabbath as that's not lovin thy neighbor hehe.. see the two greatest commandments if you do them then youre fulfillin all the laws and prophets.. so by lovin your neighbors ,youre takin care of all the commandments and laws.. if you do so.. yet paul does tell us not to continue in sin.. that's not what grace was for.. for us to keep sinnin and doin our own thing.. we are still to follow GODS words and instructions for us.. if you stumble ask for forgiveness and know you are forgven.. and repent and dont keep doin it.. we ought to walk just as HE walked. do your best.. follow the guidelines of the bible and do your best.. i mean do your best.. dont CHRIST deserve that from us after all HE did for us? i say yes.
romans 13:8-10 8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
romans 6:1-2 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
2 john 1:4-6 4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
1 john 3:-9 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.
9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
I agree with ya', cattle...but I guess what I'm trying to understand is this. We're not under the law. But we're also not supposed to sin. The only way we know what is a sin...is through the law. We would not know murder is a sin if it wasn't in the 10 commandments. Murder is a sin. Stealing is a sin. Why does 90% of the christian world think that forgetting the 4th commandment isn't? And if they're right...and we don't have to keep it....then why can't I go go worship idols? Why is it only the 4th one that we're not supposed to keep anymore? I guess that's my question.
Praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST and peace be unto you dear ones.
Beloved I don't know if you really read my post, because the questions you asked afterwards were covered there in.
Cattleman, you said that we are still under the 10 commandments or that they are still in effect (if I understood you correctly) but included in my post is scripture which clearly states that the old covenant (written and engraven in stones) is abolished.
My brother who started this particular Post, you seem to think that we are to live and keep the seventh day holy the way it was done under the law.
Well cattleman do Ya? Because that is apart of the 10 commandments which you say that we are under.
You who are under the law are not under grace, because you cannot be under both.
I gave scripture reference in my post. To pick up sticks on the seventh day under the law my friend meant Death.
Do any of you pick up sticks on the seventh day of the week?
You cannot be partial. If you are under the law then you are under all of it. GOD never said part was abolished and the other part was not abolished.
You cannot pick apart GOD'S law and make up your own thing.
GOD's laws my friend are in our hearts and our minds by the SPIRIT of GOD.
Those of you going back to the law (the letter) I do advise to read Galatians chapter 3.
Bottomline is that if you walk after the SPIRIT then you won't lie, steat, commit adultery, murder, etc. That's grace dear ones.
If your understanding of grace doesn't include Power to live Righteously, then you have the wrong understanding of grace.
If your understanding of grace says you can sin and sin and sin, then you also have the wrong understanding of grace.
It's the law which was given by Moses or Grace and Truth which came by JESUS CHRIST.
You won't be under both, no matter how hard you try. For if you are justified by the law, you are fallen from Grace.
Please read the whole book of Galatians for this is exactly the issue Paul addressed with them. Amen.
Keeping the 7th day holy was started in the garden of Eden, even before laws on stone. Do you think we'll keep it in heaven/the new earth? But like I said...if I don't have to keep the 7th day...can I worship idols? Can I blaspheme God's name? Can I worship Zeus and still be saved? Which part of the law is gone?! And why only part? How do we love God? By keeping his commandments? Why is keeping the 10 commandments of God "works", and keeping the 2 commandments of Jesus "not works"? ANYWAY...I'm starting to get frustrated...it seems there is a double standard. Isn't loving your neighbor..."works"? Going to church on Sunday? Isn't that works? Not getting angry? Dressing modestly? Not swearing? Not doing drugs? Obeying your parents? But I guess that's all just straining out gnats and swallowing camels. I don't see any of it as works. I'm not claiming salvation by keeping the commandments. I'm just trying to show God I love Him...but I guess that's not important.
Loveandgrace: "Bottom line is that if you walk after the SPIRIT then you won't lie, steal, commit adultery, murder, etc. That's grace dear ones."
Um.....and if we're in the spirit...not committing adultery, murder, or theft...not lying, not coveting, honoring our father and mother....then shouldn't we be worshiping only one God, not making idols, not taking the Lord's name in vain, and *gasp* keeping the seventh-day holy? If we're really in the spirit?? I'm sorry if it seems like I'm being nasty...I'm really not. I just read this stuff in total disbelief...I didn't know it was possible to type out of both sides of your fingers...but that's a perfect example of my question....why...only part?? We only keep six now "in the spirit"?
And cattleman and I both said "works don't save us, we're under grace"...meaning...works don't save us...and nobody is saying they do. The bible is very clear that we should keep the commandments out of love, not to save ourselves. But not being "under the law", doesn't mean it doesn't exist for us anymore. Now we're "above" it. There's better light up here to help us see it. It protects us. Instead of a "death-row" cell, it's a castle wall keeping sin out of our lives.
dear thaddeus, JESUS gave us specific instructions pertainin to the sabbath.. one can get their ox out of the mire, one can do good works , JESUS explained that when HE did healings on the sabbath.. HE also gave us explicit instructions on the two greatest commandments..
to love GOD above all else.. and to love your nekghbor as yourself.. so as ive explained killin someone for doin summin on the sabbath is not lovin your neighbor as yourself.. JESUS said those two commandments hang all the laws and prophets.. but as you can see as paul is explainin to us that if you dont keep the 10 commandments with the specific exceptions that JESUS gave us,, youre not showin love to GOD or your neighbor.. JESUS also changed about what adultery is.. that it can even be to lust at a woman.. and what grounds are for divorce.. and what arent that will lead to adultery..
the commands now are written in your hearts and minds..and we are led by the HOLY SPIRIT to follow them and all of the things the bible teaches us unless otherwise instructed by JESUS ..or we will be convicted of it or be chastened and will pay a price for our sin.. each instruction in the bible is a guide for us as to how to live our lives as a christian.. the law is GODS commands to us and we are expected to keep em unless otherwise noted by JESUS... ya see if you dont believe we need to follow HIS commands then why would you be so intent on keepin the command that women should not be a pastor in a church? or an old command that a wife shall submit to her husband? or that children shall obey their parents? i tell you why i do its because we are to still follow them and are told to us even after JESUS S death burial and resurection and acention.. and as we can see paul is tellin us that hes not tellin us a new command but yet one thats been from the beginning.. in romans 13:9 to something i believe it was in my above post..
ya see JESUS didnt come to destroy the law or prophets.,, but yet to fulfill it..
matthew 5:17-19 17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
so even though we are under grace were still expected to follow them as best we can as a christian and if we dont we will be called least in the kingdom of heaven..
Praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST and peace be unto you saints of GOD.
Dear Cattleman, you said "ya see if you dont believe we need to follow HIS commands then why would you be so intent on keepin the command that women should not be a pastor in a church? or an old command that a wife shall submit to her husband? or that children shall obey their parents?"
Beloved, no where in any of my post did I ever, I repeat, ever say that I don't believe that we should Keep the commands of the LORD.
That's the exact Opposite of What I said, by the grace of GOD.
I'm simply declaring a Covenant issue. It seems that you guys think that the Old Testatment means Live Right and the New Testament Means Live Wrong.
You seem to think that we need to go back to the Old testament in order to obey GOD.
But that's contrary to the truth. Again I advise you to prayerfully study the book of Galatians without Footnotes, but let GOD teach you, lest you study it with preconceived ideas.
Meaning as you have stated "sacraficial laws" or otherwise were abolished when others were not. Yet that is stated Nowhere in the WORD of GOD.
Don't underestimate the POWER OF THE HOLY GHOST, dear ones.
When a lost person who has never read the law hears the gospel and receives the LORD JESUS CHRIST, that person is made a New Creation. A sinless creation, as the first adam was (meaning sinfree) with the difference of living in a world which already has sin in it and a flesh (body) which craves that which is against the will of GOD. Yet the spirit is quikened (made alive).
This is what Paul was trying to relay in the book of Romans. He asked the retorical question,
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?"
The Answer:
God forbid" Romans 6:15
He said earlier, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 6:2
Beloved think about it. Who is the law made for?
The scripture gives the answer:
1Ti 1:9
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
If you are not a Righteous man then yes you need the law so that you can see your Sin and Need of a Saviour.
Now that you see your Sin and Need for a Saviour, then Let JESUS CHRIST save you. What does JESUS CHRIST save us from?
The Answer: Sin!
Now that the LORD has saved you from sin, and you are a Righteous man, what further need do you have of the law? It's not made for you.
Ro 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Think of it this way as well. What's another name for the Police?
Answer: The law
Now if you are on the highway driving your car, and have everything in order with your vehicle, and you're keeping the speed limit, you're wearing your seat belt, and obeying all the laws/rules of the road. And suddenly a cop pulls you over.
Wouldn't you wonde,r What For?
"I'm doing everything Right" You may say. "What need do I have to be pulled over and Examined by the "law"."
Likewise dear ones, you and I have been saved from sin and therefore saved from the law.
Ro 7:6
But now we are delivered (Saved) from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
JESUS CHRIST is our law. HE lives in our hearts, so that we cannot do the things which go contrary to the blessed will of GOD.
Ga 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Remember dear ones that the Gospel is preached throughout the world and not everyone has the Scriptures. Thank GOD for HIS HOLY SPIRIT. People can live for the LORD even before receiving a copy of the Holy Bible. Now the scriptures will reinerate what the SPIRIT of GOD is already saying and Never is there a conflict between the written WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT.
1Jo 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of HIM abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same ANOINTING teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as IT hath taught you, ye shall abide in HIM.
The HOLY GHOST is the TEACHER of All the saints, and we all just reinerate what the LORD has already taught by HIS HOLY SPIRIT (THE ANOINTING) WHO dwells in the saints of THE MOST HIGH GOD. Amen.
It came into my spirit today to do a series on Grace so please be prayerful that GOD's truth, shines forth and is understood and received, by all who love the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Praise the LORD.
Well...I think we were trying to point out that the commandments are in the new testament also. And I know we're saved by grace! I'm not saying we're saved by the law! What I'm asking is...if we're not supposed to sin anymore..."What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? Certainly not!" Which sins are we not supposed to commit anymore?? Some of them? All of them? Which is it? And if the law doesn't apply to the saved, how do we know what is sin after we're saved? We only know sin through the law, right? Once again. I know we're saved by grace. I know we're not under the law. But didn't Jesus ask us to keep His commandments if we love him? Aren't the 10 commandments summed up in Jesus' 2 commands? Do you keep them? That's a lot of questions...sorry. "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3, KJV).
P.S. (My Bible doesn't have footnotes...although I'm not sure what that was supposed to mean. I don't need foot notes to see that we're supposed to keep the commandments and try not to sin. It's very plain.)
