hey all...looking to perhaps spark some discussion and thought...
most north american christians are taught from a very young age that the holy spirit convicts us of sin and is that little voice inside us that tells us right from wrong.
i would like to raise some questions concerning that and what i have come to believe through much prayer, debate/discussion and study over the past couple years is a MAJOR misunderstanding of scripture.
many christians will point to the following passage from john 16 as an argument that the holy spirit will convict us of sin...
"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned." John 16:5-11
until relatively recently...the past couple years...i too would have done the same. until i had my eyes opened to something...lets take a look at this and break it down. the passage does indeed say that the holy spirit (counselor) will convict the WORLD of guilt in regard to sin, righteousness and judgement. left at that a logical conclusion would be that the holy spirit is here to convict all people of their sins...the writer goes on however to specify exactly what he is talking about.
in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me....in otherwords the holy spirit was coming to convict the WORLD of the sin of unbelief - NOT coming to convict christians of their day-to-day sins. the holy spirit is intended to be our helper, our guide, our comforter, our counselor etc...not our convictor. the holy spirit is there to help us reach god...to help us draw closer to god on a daily basis by showing us his goodness....it is the goodness of god that leads men to repentance...not the conviction of the holy spirit. i have not yet found a passage that states beyond doubt that the holy spirit will convict us as christians of sins in our lives. as previously stated though i am looking to spark some discussion, so please share if you happen to disagree and have scriptures you feel contradict what i am saying....i have a lot more i could say and im sure some of that will come out in discussion :)
now...as a further thought - you will recall earlier i made reference to that little voice inside us that says this is right or this is wrong...many christians mistakenly believe that is the holy spirit.
that is called our conscience and it has been present in man since adam and even ate from the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL...the bible says that after eating from the tree they knew right from wrong. sound familiar? it was at that point that man was given their conscience....not to be confused with the holy spirit.
anyway, its late. i have much much more i could say...pages and pages...but i will sign off for now. please share your thoughts! i look forward to some stimulating discussion!
dear kdh , , welcome to the discussion.. you make some good points .. and i really liked what you said about your own personal experiece with the HOLY SPIRIT convictin you.. as my own concience would tell me every escuse why itd be right for me to disobey GODS word and sin, but the HOLY SPIRIT does convict and stop me most of the times.. i aint perfect . but the ONE that can help me to become more like JESUS lives inside of me. thanks for your input.
Thanks Ole Cattle - lol what a cool nickname. :glow:
Also thank you for the welcome on the other thread.
I am glad to hear that I was able to contribute wisely to the conversation. It is an interesting discussion but I am just not convinced of the original argument. Neither were you I see.
thank-you for your thoughts.....until a couple of years ago i would have whole-heartedly agreed with you, however now i will stick to my original statements.
as previously stated, i have not come to these changes in belief lightly...it was a long process.
with that said, i of course can appreciate where you are coming from, however there is one thing you said that concerns me.
you mentioned that the holy spirit only communicates with believers....well i would have to strongly disagree with you on that one. to begin, if the passage referenced in john 16 were (only) for believers, how do you explain that it specifically states in the next line "with regard to sin, because they do not know me"??...how can this be referring to believers, when the (practical) definition of a believer is one who knows god?!
also, the bible is clear many times over that the holy spirit is a large and necessary part of drawing unbelievers to christ
carrying on, it is not sound biblically to believe that the holy spirit does not speak to unbelievers. how then do you explain him speaking to pharaoh through his dreams regarding the years of plenty/famine that were going to occur?
or in daniel with the writing on the wall and the kings (nebuchanezzar i believe it was...) dreams...
also the scripture that you were referencing actually goes like this..."i am the good shepherd, i know my sheep and my sheep know me" john 10:14...later on john 10:27 "my sheep listen to my voice, i know them and they follow me"...
important in here is that nowhere does jesus say that it is only his sheep that hear his voice. he says his sheep KNOW him, and LISTEN to his voice...i would like to point out however that listening is significantly different than simply hearing...listening implies a decision, while hearing is not something you have control over.
also...just a thought about your comment on the difference (or lack thereof as you were saying) between god (holy spirit) convicting believers of sin, and revealing his goodness to us....there is a distinct difference. think of it this way.
imagine a mean, nasty, spoiled child who is continually whining and doing things that they know they are not supposed to do, but they cannot seem to help themselves...the kind of kid who seems out to break all the rules purposefully...sometimes i think that is the way we must seem to god.
now, there are two ways of dealing with this....under "law"...a constant reminding of rules, of things they should not be doing that they did do, continually holding that up to them and requiring them to ask forgiveness, time and again, always reminding them that "that's not right, that's not right...dont do that or you wont get this treat, or that special event..." etc...you get the picture.
the second way is under "grace"...instead of going through the procedures described above time and again, it is unconditional love and a revealing of "goodness" that over time causes the child to want to behave better. no handing out harsh punishments, requiring "this or else", etc etc.
now, instead of the child (believer) saying sorry and asking forgiveness because they have to and because they feel they have done something bad they (over time) begin to realize that their actions when they misbehave are actually hurting the other person (god)...and because of his unconditional love for them and his unending grace, they dont want to hurt him anymore...now they are asking forgiveness not because they feel they are bad etc, but because they are truly sorry for having hurt the other porson...because of the unending goodness, love and amazing grace that that individual has shown them.
i dont know about you, but that is the way it should be in my mind...and i believe that is god's best for his sheep. he loves us unconditionally and his grace towards us is neverending...we are sinners and are going to sin - that is a given, but we should be asking his forgiveness not because we have to, or because the holy spirit has convicted us of our sin, but because we are so much in love with him that we cant stand the thought that our actions have hurt him....
also, i would like to clarify what i mean when i talk about the word convict/conviction....perhaps something i should have done from the get-go...
convict is defined as follows.
1. to prove or declare guilty of an offense
2. to impress with a sense of guilt
now if we are to say that holy spirit convicts us of sin that would mean that he is counteracting the work of jesus on the cross. the blood of jesus has covered all our sins (offenses) and our guilt was placed on him - as christians we are righteous and justified in god's eyes, therefore we cannot be guilty at the same time. the two are unreconcilable. and if we as believers are not guilty in the eyes of god then holy spirit certainly would not impress on us a sense of guilt for our sins that have been washed away, covered with the blood of jesus, separated from us as far as east is from west etc.....
NOW - we will still be made aware of sin through the holy spirits working in our lives as we become more christ like and the goodness of god is continually revealed to us, but he will NOT convict us of sins. i stand firm on that....
again, i would like to invite you to check out some of the teaching of joseph prince...it will blow your mind.
as i said earlier, i can totally understand where you are coming from...i was there too not that long ago...but dont take my word for it. study scripture...and not just in english...look beyond that at the original languages/meanings and tenses. there is a lot that gets lost in english translation...also context is so important. i have learned that again through this whole journey i have been on...not only the preceding and following verse, but the chapter, book and even who it was written to and when it was written come into play...
hebrews 13:31 make you complete in every good work to do HIS will, working in you , what is well pleasing in HIS sight through JESUS CHRIST , to whom be glory forever and ever amen....
very important that we remember that mans nature is not good. the bible tells us that HE will MAKE us complete in every good work to do HIS will. workin in you what is well pleasin in HIS sight.. how can HE make you do good? the HOLY SPIRIT inside of you convicts and makes you want to do good for HIS will. it says workin in you, who is? the HOLY SPIRIT IS. to whom gets the glory? JESUS CHRIST , who lives inside of you..
it is not man that wills himself to do good and repent.. but yet give glory where glory is due.. JESUS CHRIST in you convicts and makes you to do good ..
