A false dilemma has been perpetrated on the forums that falsely contrasts the Hebrew Scriptures with Trinitarian theology. The fact is, there is no distinction between the Hebrew teaching about the Trinity and the Trinitarian Theology held by orthodox Christianity. The real difference, however, is between certain modern Jewish interpretations of the ancient Hebrew text. Modern Jewish thought rejects the Messiahship of Jesus as they have since the time of Jesus despite the fact Jesus clearly fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies leading up to his resurrection.
Chuckles: You apparently did not know that it is **ALWAYS** all right to post God's Word showing that Jesus is our **GREAT GOD** and **SAVIOR FROM SIN** and that he helped the Father creating the universe in a **CHRISTIAN FORUM**. You were probably confused and thought you were still on **SATAN'S FORUM**!!
Isaiah 9:6--7: For unto us a **CHILD** is born, to us a **SON** is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor ,**MIGHTY GOD**! and **PRINCE OF PEACE**. Of the greatness of His government **THERE WILL BE NO END**. He will reign on David's throne and over His Kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness **FROM THAT TIME ON AND ****FOREVER****.
John 1:1-3,18: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Go, and the **WORD WAS GOD**. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that as been made...No one has ever seen God, but the One and only Son, who is **HIMSELF GOD** and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known!
John 20:27-29: Jesus said to the doubting Thomas, "Put your finger here in My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe!" Thomas said to Him, My Lord and **MY GOD**!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed!" {And so since Chuckles does not believe he is not blessed by Jesus!!}
Hebrews 1:1-3,6,8: In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us **BY HIS SON**, whom he appointed **HEIR OF ALL THINGS**, and **THROUGH WHOM HE MADE THE UNIVERSE**. The Son is the radiance of God's glory **EXACT** representation of His being, sustaining al things by **HIS POWERFUL WORD! After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven... When God brings His firstborn into the world He says, "Let all God's angels **WORSHIP HIM**.... About the Son He says, "Your throne, **O GOD**, will last for ever and ever, a scepter of justice will be the scepter of **YOUR KINGDOM**!"
Titus 2:13,14: We wait for the **BLESSED HOPE**--the glorious appearing of our **GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR**, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify a people that are **HIS VERY OWN**, eager to do what is good!!
Philippians 2:5-10: In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus. Who being in very nature God, did not consider Equality with God something to be used to His own advantage; rather He made Himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted Him to the **HIGHEST PLACE** and gave Him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus **EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW**, in heaven and on earth!! {Including Chuckles!!}
I read the Jews for Jesus article. It is a good article, but just as I said before. Two powers in heaven has ALWAYS be a source of debate among Jews. This article "infers" the addition of the Holy Spirit, which is not unacceptable as a interpretation.
However......
The article does NOT address the fine points of Trinitarian doctrine as mandated by orthodox Christianity. Namely HOW the three are united as One, in Purpose? Will? Essence? Personhood? ect....
Essentially the article proves nothing other than God can and does manifest in different ways. (even Hindus believe that!) Granted the article focuses on only three ways.
I never said anything about Jesus fulfilling ALL the Messianic prophecies in their entirety. I said, rather, he fulfilled all the messianic prophecies leading up to his resurrection. Maybe I wasn’t clear but I meant to communicate that he fulfilled all the relevant Messianic prophecies relating to his first appearance. Yes, there are other prophecies that await future fulfillment at his second coming.
Yes, I agree Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies he was supposed to, as further evidenced in fulfilling the three spring feasts Passover, First Fruits and Shavuot (Pentecost), with the fall feasts yet to be fulfilled at his second coming. This is supporting evidence that ALL messianic prophecies were not meant to be fulfilled all at once.
Chuckk, I’m quoting your last post again in case we get lost in the shuffle.
David,
I read the Jews for Jesus article. It is a good article, but just as I said before. Two powers in heaven has ALWAYS be a source of debate among Jews. This article "infers" the addition of the Holy Spirit, which is not unacceptable as a interpretation.
However......
The article does NOT address the fine points of Trinitarian doctrine as mandated by orthodox Christianity. Namely HOW the three are united as One, in Purpose? Will? Essence? Personhood? ect....
Essentially the article proves nothing other than God can and does manifest in different ways. (even Hindus believe that!) Granted the article focuses on only three ways.
Good read,
Thanks for posting it
You’re welcome, Chuckk
Chuckk, l think you’re confusing the orthodox doctrine of the trinity with the Modalist heresy, which as you indicate is similar to Hindu belief. But article clearly states there are 3 separate persons but one God (one plurality ie Elohim) NOT one God who has 3 modes or manifestations.
I mentioned that neither the OT nor the NT exhaustively explain the Trinity but they do contain sufficient evidence on which to establish the doctrine and that provides answers your inquiries here:
“Namely HOW the three are united as One, in Purpose? Will? Essence? Personhood?
"Chuckk, l think you’re confusing the orthodox doctrine of the trinity with the Modalist heresy, which as you indicate is similar to Hindu belief. But article clearly states there are 3 separate persons but one God (one plurality ie Elohim) NOT one God who has 3 modes or manifestations."
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You are correct about 'modalism', however the point is there have been MANY doctrines of Trinitarianism and as history shows, it's been the side willing to kill the most Christians that wins out.
Chuckk, you’re right about many “doctrines of the trinity”, I would rather say “distortions of the Trinity”, of which moralism is one such distortion.
I also agree that certain sides where willing to kill.
But you’re forgetting one major player in historic debate over the trinity. This man stood nearly alone against the religious elite in his day in defense of the trinity against Arianism.
He eventually suffered exile and persecution.
It isn’t always true that the side most “willing to kill the most Christians that wins out.”
In fact, Christians today suffer more persecution than any other group, yet they still exist to suffer even more
We agree on many things. Where we differ is you insist on one 'currently' manifest Trinitarian doctrine.
That's okay with me. What isn't okay is an insistence that I believe likewise.
This is because I accept all the Trinitarian doctrines and none of them. Although I appreciate and value the plethora of speculations, it is my opinion; the true and complete nature of God cannot be known this side of eternity.
The Orthodox Christian doctrine while having value is Not my first choice. My first choice is to simply let God be who HE will be, and not trying to figure HIM or pigeon hole HIM.
This is what I like about Judaism: They don't have a bunch of systematized formulas as to who God is. Rather.....
