I have a red flag feeling when I see the word "trinity".
I find it can be traced back to Tertullian's vain philosophies and deceit that Paul warns about. Who knows where Tertullian got it but the trinity is not a new doctrine , it can be seen in Babylon with Baal, Ishtar and Tammuz. Christian theology was largely organized and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meeting place of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revivified by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece. The library at Alexandria burned and the first person blamed for the destruction is none other than Julius Caesar himself. In 48 BC, Caesar was pursuing Pompey into Egypt when he was suddenly cut off by an Egyptian fleet at Alexandria.
This however is what I do believe about the Godhead..
Genesis 1 God created....
Exodus 3:4 I AM
Isaiah 43 :1-2, 10-15 Redeemer, no Savior beside me.
Isaiah 46:9-11 No other God , end from beginning
Isaiah 49:16 I have inscribed you on my palms.
John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word and the Word....
John 8:58 Before Abraham was , I AM.
John 14:9-11 He that has seen me has seen the Father.
John 1:18 in the bosom of the Father
Colossians 2:9 ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily
1 Corinthians 8:6 For us there is ONE God, the FATHER.
Just like the Pinocchio prophet, Chuckk occasionally drifts into orthodoxy and says something right.
If I understand him correctly, Chuckk is right to assert that the accurate interpretation of any historical document is to be determined only by referencing its historical, grammatical and linguistic contexts.
Fortunately, most modern translations of scripture, except for the Jehovah’s Witness witless NWT, apply that method.
Now, for KJV”0” ‘s uncritical and willing credulity with the KJVonlism cult.
KJV”0” follows pretty much lockstep with KJVonlism’s historical rewrites.
After all, if the Mormon cult sees fit to rewrite history in order to justify their cult ambitions, why can’t other cults like KJVonlism do the same??
Fair enough
So that’s what KJVonlism does.
But one bad turn deserves another, so while you’re at it, may as well introduce the Babylonian “trinity” in order to obfuscate the Holy Spirt inspired version and history of the trinity
The fact that pagan religions before and during the time of Biblical inspiration were fraught with various triads is incontestable.
The fact that Scripture written admist these pagan religions yet never explicitly teaches a triad God, is also incontestable. (excepting the likely fraudulent Johannine Comma, ironically for this thread, found exclusively in the King James Version)
The fact that the doctrine of the Trinity must be systematically derived from Scripture is incontestable.
**THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS **FAITH** EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH LOVE**!!{Galatians 5:6}
Acts 26:17,18: Jesus said to Paul, "I am sending you to the Gentiles to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are **SANCTIFIED BY FAITH**!"
Romans 1:17: For in the Gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is **BY FAITH FROM FIRST TO LAST**!!
Romans 3:23-25: For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of His blood--to be received **BY FAITH**!!
Romans 3:27,28: Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? **NO**, because of the law that **REQUIRES FAITH**! For we maintain that a person is **JUSTIFIED BY FAITH** apart from the works of the law!!
Romans 5:1,2: Therefore, since we have been **JUSTIFIED THOUGH FAITH**, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access **BY FAITH** into this grace in which we now stand!!
Romans 10:5-9: Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them." {Lev 18:5} But the righteousness that comes **BY FAITH** says...The word is near you: it is in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the message concerning **FAITH** that we proclaim: IF you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your **FAITH** and are saved!!
Romans 12:3: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the **FAITH** God has distributed to each of you!!
Romans 14:23: Everything that does not come **FROM FAITH** is sin!!
2 Corinthians 1:24: We work with you for your joy, because it is **BY FAITH** you stand firm!!
2 Corinthians 5:6-10: We are always confident and know that as long as we are at home with the body we are away from the Lord. For we live **BY FAITH**, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please Him... For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad!!
Galatians 2:16: We know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but **BY FAITH** in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our **FAITH** in Christ Jesus that we may be **JUSTIFIED BY FAITH** in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law **NO ONE WILL BE JUSTIFIED**!!
Galatians 3:23-26: Before the coming of this **FAITH**, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the **FAITH** that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be **JUSTIFIED BY FAITH**. Now that this **FAITH** has come we are **NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVION OF THE LAW**. So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God **THROUGH FAITH**!!
Galatians 5:5,6: For through the Spirit we eagerly await **BY FAITH** the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is **FAITH** expressing itself through **LOVE**!!
Ephesians 2:8-10: For it is by grace you have been saved, **THROUGH FAITH**--and this is not from yourselves, it is the **GIFT** of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are **GOD'S HANDIWORK**, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do!!
Ephesians 3:16,17: I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts **THROUGH FAITH**!!
I Thessalonians 1:3: We remember before our God and Father you work produced **BY FAITH**!!
2 Thessalonians 1:3,4: We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your **FAITH** is growing **MORE AND MORE**....Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and **FAITH** in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring!!
2 Thessalonians 1:11: We constantly pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of His calling, and that by His power He may bring to fruition your every desire for goodness and your every deed **PROMPTED BY FAITH**!!
I Timothy 1:3,4: Command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer... Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God's work--which is **BY FAITH**!!
2 Timothy 3:14,15: Continue in what you have learned and become convinced of...and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation **THROUGH FAITH** in Christ Jesus!!
Hebrews 11:1,3,6: So **FAITH** is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see...**BY FAITH** we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, in that what is seen was not made out of what was visible... Without **FAITH** it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He **REWARDS** those who earnestly seek Him!!
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, “The Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels and **THEN** He will **REWARD** each person according to what he has done!”
Hebrews 12:1,2: Let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Pioneer and Perfecter of our **FAITH**!!
**THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF THROUGH ***LOVE***!!{Galatians 5:6}
**THE FATHER LOVES HIS FAITHUL SAINTS JUST AS MUCH AS HE LOVES JESUS**
John 17:23: Jesus says to His Father, "You sent Me and have **LOVED THEM** even as you **LOVED** Me!!"
**JESUS LOVES HIS FAITHFUL SAINTS **JUST AS MUCH** AS THE FATHER LOVES HIM**!!
John 15:9,10" Jesus says, "As the Father **LOVED** Me, so I have **LOVED** you!! Now remain in My **LOVE . **IF** you obey My commands, you will remain in My **LOVE**, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His **LOVE** !"
John 14:21,23: Jesus says, "Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who **LOVES** Me! He who loves Me will be **LOVED** by My Father, and I will **LOVE** him....If anyone **LOVES** Me, he will obey My teaching. My Father will **LOVE** him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him!!"
WHAT'S **LOVE** GOT TO DO WITH IT??
I Peter 1:22: "Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere **LOVE** for your brothers, **LOVE** one another deeply, from the heart. For you have been born again... through the living and enduring Word of God!
I Peter 4:8: **ABOVE ALL**, **LOVE** each other **DEEPLY**, because **LOVE** covers over a multitude of sins!
I Corinthians 13:2,4-8: If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not **LOVE** I am nothing...**LOVE** is patient, **LOVE** is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. **LOVE** does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. **LOVE** never fails!!"
John 13:34: Jesus says, "A NEW command I give you: **LOVE* one another As I have **LOVED** you, so you must **LOVE** one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples." John 15:12,13: Jesus says, "My command is this: **LOVE** each other as I have **LOVED** you. Greater **LOVE** has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
I John 3:16: This how we know what **LOVE** is: Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers!
Ephesians 5:1,2: Be **IMITATORS OF GOD**, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of **LOVE**, just as Christ **LOVED** us and gave Himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God!
Luke 6:27,28,35,36: Jesus says, "**LOVE** your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. **LOVE** your enemies, do good to them. and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your **REWARD** will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful!"
Matthew 28:19.20” Jesus commands, “Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to *OBEY EVERYTHING* I have commanded you!” {See I John 2:3-5}
EVERYTHING would also include all the other commands in God's inspired Word from Acts to Revelation as per 2 Timothy 3:16: 4:2: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work...Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction."
If we really **LOVE** our brothers and sister in Christ we will lovingly teach them to obey all the approximately 400 commands of the NT with **LOVE** in the hope of countless eternal rewards when Jesus comes with great power with all His angels.
Revelation 22:112: Jesus says,"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!?
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and **THEN** He will **REWARD** each person according to what he has done."
Ephesians 4:15: "Speaking the Truth in **LOVE** , we will in all things grow up into Him who is the Head, that is, Christ! From Him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in **LOVE** , as each part does its work."
Ephesians 3:17-19: "I pray that you, being rooted and established in **LOVE** may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the **LOVE** of Christ, and to know this **LOVE** that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God!!"
I John 4:7-12: Dear friends, let us **LOVE** one another, for **LOVE** comes from God. Everyone who **LOVES** has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not **LOVE** does not know God, because God is **LOVE**. This is how God showed His **LOVE**among us: He sent His one and only Son into the world that we might live through Him. This is **LOVE**, not that we **LOVED** God, but that He **LOVED** us and sent His Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so **LOVED** us, we ought to **LOVE** one another. No one has ever seen God, but if we **LOVE** one another, God lives in us and His **LOVE** is made complete in us!
Romans 8:35,37-39: Who shall separate us from the **LOVE** of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?...We are more than conquerors through Him who **LOVED** us! For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the **LOVE** of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord!!
First, English translations often replace the names used for God. In Genesis 1:1, the actual name of God is "Elohim" which is plural. Actually that's what Elohim means. Both God that is "Unified" as One, and "Plural" in identity.
Second, we see there are three distinct but unified identities. I think one of the better examples is here.
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
We see Jesus, The Holy Ghost, and the Father all mentioned at the Christ's baptism.
- I think the difficulty is mostly due to the word "trinity" because used to describe God when that word isn't found in the English bibles. If we said "Elohim", it would be hard to challenge, but God also isn't always referred to as Elohim.
Personally I try not to use "Trinity" as someone would a proper name, as to not run around in circles over controversy, but I also know what people are talking about.
"First....."Actually that's what Elohim means. Both God that is "Unified" as One, and "Plural" in identity."
Ummmm......no
Elohim literally means "gods"
In the Bible it is used for YHWH, the Sons of YHWH, Angels and occasionally men representing God.
(In reality, Elohim is a title saying where someone is from, like calling someone an American. You might want to search up Dr Michael Hieser on the subject)
"Second, we see there are three distinct but unified identities."
Ummm.....no
There is no definable "unity" other than will and action
"If we said "Elohim", it would be hard to challenge"
Ummmm......no
You have >redefined< the word "Elohim" to suit a preconceived systematic theology.
Chuckk mucks up again with fallacious and massive equivocations of historical content
Chuckk says
QUOTE
The fact that pagan religions before and during the time of Biblical inspiration were fraught with various triads is incontestable.
The fact that Scripture written admist these pagan religions yet never explicitly teaches a triad God, is also incontestable. (excepting the likely fraudulent Johannine Comma, ironically for this thread, found exclusively in the King James Version)
The fact that the doctrine of the Trinity must be systematically derived from Scripture is incontestable.
END CHUCKK QUOTE
Ok let’s dissect Chuckk’s mucky mess consisting equivocal comparisons of historical content and his cult like rewrite of history.
I agree, it is an “incontestable” fact of history that pagan religions were fraught with deviations of triadic gods.
Trouble is, Chuckk’s false argument fails because the Biblical Trinity is not comparable to pagan triads. Hence, the usual fallacious application of “pagan triads” in comparison to the biblical revelation concerning the historical doctrine of the trinity.
Chuckk, like other anti-trinitarian heretics, must continue to dishonestly stretch (equivocate) the biblical distinction of trinity doctrine to include a “triad” of separate independent gods instead of a unity of persons in a single Godhead.
Despite my many many appeals to the multiple facts supported by scriptural content from which trinity doctrine is upheld, Chuckk chooses to rather to ignore biblical history and blindly follows his beloved hero heretics instead.
Chuckk says:
“The fact that Scripture written admist these pagan religions yet never explicitly teaches a triad God, is also incontestable.”
It’s very interesting to note how heretics much twist the true meaning of the biblical doctrine of the trinity in order to “refute” it.
The fact is, heretics like Chuckk, are not able to refute the biblical doctrine of the trinity, instead they just made up stories in the form straw-men “trinities” and pretend to refute the beliefs of those holding to biblical revelation.
Chuckk is sure to express his loathing of Systemic Theology. But here again, he hasn’t spelled out exactly which form of “systematic theology” he hates.
Systematic Theology basically explains biblical truth in a consistent manner.
So is Chuckk possibly self-loathing of his failed systematic attempts to make his heretical beliefs consistent ??
Elohim is used in Genesis 1:1 for God as the Creator.
אֱלֹהִים 'Elohiym. It is plural of Elowahh. If you have a singular name of God because used to describe plurality, then that should tell you something. You might be thinking of "El." "Samu-el, Gabri-el."
-
No defined unity?
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
It doesn't get anymore unified than that. Additionally, once he said that, they were going to try and stone Jesus and it's very important to look at why that set them off.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Also, we know the Holy Spirit was a part of Jesus and was not to be given until He was glorified.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
This was also part of the prayer spoken by Jesus at Gethsemane. I'll share two verses from it.
John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jon 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
So when did this happen?
1 Peter 1:21 ”Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”
He was additionally said to be crowned with glory and honor.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
As far as the rest of your statement, attributing something to "systematic theology" isn't a valid argument, as the statements rest on the authority of scripture.
All born from above saints believe that God's Word clearly teaches that Jesus is God which Chuckles denies.
Not all Christians believe that the holy spirit is God since the holy spirit is never called Lord or God and is never worshiped; and in our eternal home in the New Jerusalem there will only be **TWO THRONES FOR JESUS AND THE FATHER** as per Revelation 22:3: "The throne of God and the **LAMB** will be in the City!" {In our Eternal Home the New Jerusalem!!}
Revelation 3:21: To those who are victorious, I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne , just as I was victorious and sat down with My Father on His throne!"
Isaiah 9:6--7: For unto us a **CHILD** is born, to us a **SON** is given, and the government will be on His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor ,**MIGHTY GOD**! and **PRINCE OF PEACE**. Of the greatness of His government **THERE WILL BE NO END**. He will reign on David's throne and over His Kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness **FROM THAT TIME ON AND ****FOREVER****.
John 1:1-3,18: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Go, and the **WORD WAS GOD**. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that as been made...No one has ever seen God, but the One and only Son, who is **HIMSELF GOD** and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known!
John 20:27-29: Jesus said to the doubting Thomas, "Put your finger here in My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe!" Thomas said to Him, My Lord and **MY GOD**!" Then Jesus told
him, Because you have seen Me, you have believed, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed!" {And so since Chuckles does not believe he is not blessed by Jesus!!}
Hebrews 1:6,8: When God brings His firstborn into the world He says, "Let all God's angels **WORSHIP HIM**.... About the Son He says, "Your throne, **O GOD**, will last for ever and ever, a scepter of justice will be the scepter of **YOUR KINGDOM**!"
Titus 2:13,14: We wait for the **BLESSED HOPE**--the glorious appearing of our **GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR**, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify a people that are **HIS VERY OWN**, eager to do what is good!!
John 16:12-14: Jesus says, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he the spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears. and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify Me because it is **FROM ME**that he will receive **WHAT HE WILL MAKE KNOWN TO YOU**!"
Hebrews 12:2: So we fix our eyes on Jesus, the **AUTHOR** and **PERFECTER** of our faith!!
And so Jesus told the holy spirit what to inspire the 8 writers of the New Testament exactly what to write which would include the 4 passages in John which confirms that Jesus is God!!
John 12:48: Jesus says, "There is a Judge for the one who does accept My words, that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the Last Day!" {With eternal torment in hell}
So Satan's followers all deceptively say Jesus is lord but will never admit that Jesus is God like Chuckles.
