If your not - start a thread on Paul. I'll meet you there.
But be prepared to be schooled!
Fair warning,
Paul may technically considered a Apostle to the Gentiles as in "messenger" But no way is he an Apostle in the same way the 12 are, Nor does he meet the qualifications the 12 Apostles defined as requirements of a Apostle.
Proceed at your own risk.
End quote
I know you are Messianic.. I know you keep the feast when we discussed it once when you was in here as Sadlup. (I prefer that username by the way , it suits your style and personality- love it!)
I am having a parallel discussion with another member on another thread simutaneously...so here is what I posted tonight.
The question presented to me was as follows:
"If Paul was teaching against the keeping of Torah why would he take part in any sacrifice, or take a vow that has it's roots in the Torah? "
Paul circumcised Timothy so that both of them would be received and be heard since Jews and Gentiles were not to co-mingle as the law forbid it and Timothy was a Greek. . It was necessary even though circumcision was not applicable at that time post cross. It was all about evangelizing the masses.
The Jerusalem brethren explained to Paul that thousands of Jews had “believed,” i.e., they had been converted to Christ.
Though these multitudes had become Christians, they had not arrived at the full realization that the introduction of Christianity made the law of Moses inoperative as a redemptive system. Accordingly, these new Christians still circumcised their children (as a covenant sign), and they observed many of the “customs” of the Mosaic regime.
Here was the problem: a report had been circulated widely that Paul went about constantly teaching that Jews, especially those who lived in Gentile lands, should “forsake,” (apostasia –. “apostasy”) Moses. “Moses” stands for the Old Testament economy. They apparently had concluded that Paul opposed any sort of connection with the Hebrew system, which was not true.
The Jewish antagonists were bound to hear that Paul was in Jerusalem, and there would be trouble. The following solution, therefore, was proposed. There were four Hebrew men who had placed themselves under a vow (likely a Nazarite vow). It was near the time for that ritual to be consummated by a purification ceremony in the temple. It was suggested, therefore, that Paul identify with them, paying their temple fees, and, “purifying” himself along with them. Such a procedure was allowed under the law. This would be done so that the Jews in general might see that Paul was “walking orderly, observing the law.” Gentiles, of course, were under no such constraints, as indeed the conference in Jerusalem had established
Not only were the four “purified,” but so was Paul—though likely not for the same reason. There is no evidence that the apostle was under a vow. However, since he recently had been in Gentile territory, he would be viewed as ceremonially “unclean,” hence would need to purify himself in order to partake with the others.
Paul’s teaching on the abolition of the law had been clear and definitive ( 2 Cor. 3; Rom. 7; Gal. 5).
"Paul circumcised Timothy so that both of them would be received and be heard since Jews and Gentiles were not to co-mingle as the law forbid it and Timothy was a Greek. "
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There was a Gentile in Scripture who Paul forbid to be circumcised. Yet Timothy was not considered a Gentile by Paul. Because Timothy's mother was Jewish, according to Halacha (Jewish Law) Timothy was considered Jewish and should be circumcised.
The problem in Jerusalem happened for a different reason than you think. One of Paul's uncircumcised Gentile converts entered the Temple rendering it unclean because Paul taught him the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile in the Temple had been removed. This caused a riot and Paul was sought out for judgement.
"having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
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Where there is no Law there is no Sin. The Gentiles were not under the Law so how is this applicable to them???
Yes, there is an answer, perhaps two answers. but you can stew on it for awhile, I have to go to work now.
"According to Orthodox Judaism, **SACRIFICES NEVER FORGIVE SIN**"???.
Isaiah 53:5-6: But He pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on Him, and by His wounds we are healed. we all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all!!
**WE ARE ONLY REDEEEMED AND OUR SINS FORGIVEN BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST??**
John 13:34,35: Jesus says, "**A NEW COMMAND** I give you: Love one another **AS I HAVE LOVED YOU**, so you must love one another!" John 15:12,13: "Jesus says, "My command is this: Love each other **AS I HAVE LOVED YOU**. Greater love has no one than this, that **HE LAY DOWN HIS LIFE** for his friends!"
Matthew 26:28: Jesus says, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many **FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS**!"
Galatians 2:18-21: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! The life I live in the body, I live by **FAITH** in the Son of God, who loved me and **GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME**!! I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!!
Hebrews 9:12: He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by **HIS OWN BLOOD**, having obtained **ETERNAL REDEMPTION**!
Hebrews 9:22; 26-28: The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood **THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS**.... But now He has appeared **ONCE FOR ALL** at the end of the ages to do away with sin **BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF**!! Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, and Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people, and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him!!
Hebrews 10:8-10: First He said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor were You pleased with them," although the law required them to be made. Then He said, "Here I am, I have come to do Your will." He sets aside the first **TO ESTABLISH THE SECOND**. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ **ONCE FOR ALL**!!
Romans 3:21-25: But now a righteousness from God, **APART FROM THE LAW**, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes **THROUGH FAITH** in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by **HIS GRACE** through the **REDEMPTION** that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a **SACRIFICE OF ATONEMENT**, **THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD**!!
Colossians 2:13-15: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you **ALIVE WITH CHRIST**. He forgave us **ALL OUR SINS**, having canceled the written code, with its regulation, that was against us and that stood opposed to us, He took it away, **NAILNG IT TO THE CROSS**!!.
Ephesians 1:3-8; 11: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with **EVERY** spiritual blessing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and **BLAMELESS** in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will--to the praise of His **GLORIOUS GRACE**, which He has freely given us in the One He loves. In Him we have **REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD**, **THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS**, in accordance the riches of God's grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding!!
I Peter 1:18,19: For you know that was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were **REDEEMED** from the empty way of life handed down to you by your forefathers, but with the **PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST**, Lamb without blemish or defect!!
I Peter 2:24,25: He Himself **BORE OUR SINS** in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness, by **HIS WOUNDS** we are healed {See Isaiah 53:5,6}!! For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls!!
I Peter 3:18 For Christ **DIED FOR SINS ONCE FOR ALL**, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God!!
I John 2:1,2: My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have One who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the **ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS**, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world!!
I John 4:10-12: This is **LOVE**, not that we loved God, but that He **LOVED** us and sent His Son as an **ATONING SACRIFICE** for our sins.
Revelation 1:4,5: Grace and peace to you from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful Witness... To Him who loves us and freed us from our sins **BY HIS BLOOD**!!
NOTE: Jesus Christ our Savior is called the **LAMB** of God **30 TIMES** in the book of Revelation because He did away with all lamb sacrifices for sin by the sacrifice of Himself!!
Revelation 5:6,9: Then I saw a **LAMB**, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne...You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because You were slain, and **WITH YOUR BLOOD** You purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation!!
Romans 5:6-10: You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless. Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His love for us in this: While we were still sinners Christ died for us. Since we are now justified **BY HIS BLOOD**, how much more will we be saved from God's wrath through Him! When we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to Him **THROUGH THE DEATH OF HIS SON**!!
"At the time of His crucifixion, Jesus Christ became sin for us."
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This is Paul's exegesis of Scripture in light of his current events. There is only one example of ritual penal substitution in Scripture/Judaism. However the goat that becomes sin is set free, while the clean goat becomes the sacrifice.
Of course the moral law still stands! The question ought to be: Does the penalty for breaking the moral Law still stand? And: Was the penalty always enforced for every violation or were there grace periods given?
I must point out before we get to far along the "Law" is a poor or unfortunate translation. A better translation would be "Instruction".
The ceremonial laws are Nation and Temple dependent, therefore not currently still applicable regardless of the cross. Whether they are to be reinstated with the Third Temple? Who knows, Scripture says yes. However some in Orthodox Judaism take the position that Messiah will need to reinstate the Ceremonial Laws.
"The Ten Commandments God gave to Moses and the Israelites, He also engraved it into every person's heart. As Paul says in Romans 2, “for when Gentiles (non-Jews) do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts (14-15, NKJV)."
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You are taking liberties, reading what the Text does Not say. Paul is saying; ""when".... Gentiles....do.....(this) show(s)....the law written in their hearts".
NOT that it is "engraved it into every person's heart" That actually New Covenant terminology for after the Cross.
