It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
KJVonly to jump a head in this manner shows a lack of discipline. To work forward one must first show from this passage, i.e. Mat. 5:17 that the law has fulfilled. As yet that has not been done. I am also waiting for someone to show both side of their argument as I have done. If you watch, you will soon see that what I said is true. Then you will understand why i stay out of this kind of forum.
You know after reading your post again, I can't wait until the fundamental question place before us is answered. What you ask is indeed a set of good questions, yet they do fall out side of Mat. 5:17. To get the that we must look at the meaning for the 2 words I posted from your point of view.
First you say of the word fulfill,
"The word "fulfill" is from the Greek word pleroo, which has a wide range of meanings:"satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfill, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply."
If we look at what Strong's tells us we find the folloing.
Now if we look at this from the point of view that most do, we would key in on the complete, or end in this definition. Though it does seem to fit, that would also place the last 1/2 of this passage in conflict with the first 1/2.
Yet as some would say, by using the part of Strong's definition , i.e. (to fill) would place the first 1/2 in conflict with the last line. Let me show how both sides would work their side out.
First the side that tells us the Law is valid.
Yeshua tells us He didn't com to destroy, so to try and use this passage to say he removed it would be wrong. After all to destroy a thing makes it useless. Or as Strongs would say,
to dissolve, disunite (what has been joined together), to destroy, demolish metaph. to overthrow i.e. render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught to subvert, overthrow of institutions, forms of government, laws, etc., to deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard of travellers, to halt on a journey, to put up, lodge (the figurative expression originating in the circumstance that, to put up for the night, the straps and packs of the beasts of burden are unbound and taken off; or, more correctly from the fact that the traveller's garments, tied up when he is on the journey, are unloosed at it end)
Though some will see this a matter of semantics, or an attempt to muddy the water, it is always wise to look at both the Greek, as seem above, as well the Hebrew, as seen below. Though one would wise to look past Strong's for the Hebrew in almost ever case. As the word Strong's gives us here is the Hebrew word חֻפָּה This word more closely comes out to be Innocent when placed in a literal translation.
If you wish to see the Hebrew please look here. https://glosbe.com/he/en/%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%A1
As both show meanings that are easy to understand, and up hold the others, we are lrft with one last question. Why did Yeshua say Don't think I came to destroy the LAW, or the Prophets, if really meant Understand that I have came to.
Now the other side of the coin may say,
As the passage tells us Jesus came to fulfill, in doing so, He freed us from the OT Laws. The first part of the passage goes not to His dead, rather His life. The last part, tells us what will come after His death and resurrection.
Matthew 5:17,18: Jesus says, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to **FULFILL THEM**! I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law **UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED**!"
Acts 3:18-20: This is how **GOD FULFILLED** what He had foretold through the prophets, saying that the Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that He may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus!! He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as He promised long ago through His holy prophets!!
Ephesians 3:8-11: Although I am less than the least of all of God's people, this faith was given to me to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches in Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom 0f God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to His **ETERNAL PURPOSE** which He **ACCOMPLISHED**in Christ Jesus our Lord. In Him and **THROUGH FAITH IN HIM** we may approach God with freedom and confidence**
The following Scripture proves that Jesus completely **FULFILLED** the OT prophesies and **ACCOMPLISHED SALVATION** so that we are no longer in need of the OT Law!!
Matthew 28:18-20: Jesus says, "**ALL AUTHORITY** in heaven and on earth has been given to **ME**. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to **OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU**. And surely I am with you always!!"
I Corinthians 9:21: I am under **CHRIST'S LAW**!!
Galatians 6:2: Fulfill the **LAW OF CHRIST**!!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the {**OT**} law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE {**OT**} LAW!!"
*WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!
Galatians 2:14-16,20,21; 3:2,5,10-13;23-25: Paul said, When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is NOT justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH AND NOT BY OBSERVING THE LAW, because by observing the law no one will be justified.!"
Galatians 2:20,21: The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
Galatians 3:10-13: "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." **CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW** by becoming a curse for us!
Galatians 3:23-25: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, *WE* ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE LAW!!"
Hebrews 7:18,19: The former regulation is SET ASIDE because it was weak and useless; for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.!
Hebrews 8:8,9,13: "The time is coming." says the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah".... By calling this Covenant "NEW", He has made the first one OBSOLETE; and what is OBSOLETE and aging will soon disappear."
Hebrews 8:6: But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is Mediator is SUPERIOR TO THE OLD ONE, and it is founded on better promises.
Colossians 2:16,17: Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you **EAT** or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a *SHADOW* of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ!!!
T0TH3M4X That is all due to people that simply have no concept of order. You can always do the same as I do, Just over look them, and follow the post that stay with in the topic.
As the passage tells us Jesus came to fulfill, in doing so, He freed us from the OT Laws. The first part of the passage goes not to His dead, rather His life. The last part, tells us what will come after His death and resurrection.
End quote
I have ALOT of questions which I hope we can address here eventually . I do have a different view than most about end time eschatology. I subscribe to the view that ALL is fulfilled which makes me question sabbath keeping by the letter as opposed to written on our hearts. Or maybe I am getting 2 different law mixed up! I am here for discussion driven by the pursuit of truth and therefore happiness.
If you are looking for more than one point of view, ask away. I do ask that we please only look at one passage at a time. Don't get me wrong, I know full well that any true understanding can only be shown in the manner that we discern scripture. The only true way to study, is to always find common ground one passage at a time.
To use an analogy here. Torah is the mark, Please over look how I say this, and look to the meaning of it. If we look at Denominational doctrine as a shotgun blast, When you closely at the pattern left on paper, the center is almost void of pellets. True Biblical Doctrine works like a rifle in the hands of a sniper. If we truly seek truth, seek only that. Build on our understanding of a single passage. This helps the study to move faster, as it removes the undisciplined need to go in circles. Trust me, if you are still here, and speaking in a friendly manner, I am here to help in anyway I can.
If you are willing, please tell me from 2 opposing view points what is meant in Mat. 5:17.
Keep in mind this has been my way of teaching for many years. I do it with ease, I do however understand if you can't. Not many people can. Other than that I need some way of knowing where we stand on 17 please.
Jesus came to fulfill the law, man could not keep the law. We put our Faith in Jesus as our personal Savior, as Believers, we know Jesus died on the cross for All our sins and he's our mediator to God . God looks at us holy because our Faith is in Jesus.
Your post is loaded with question that need asked. So I am going to stay with what applies to Mat.5:17. Do you think<(that from a passage that must place one statement in conflict with the next to find your answer) is a sound investment?
Or maybe I am getting 2 different law mixed up! I am here for discussion driven by the pursuit of truth and therefore happiness. 