Who is our teacher? What did he teach? Did Jesus teach to judge others? Or to Love others? Did Jesus teach to alienate others based on doctrine?
For example Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and other sects believe Jesus is the son of God. They feed the hungry. They help the poor. They preach the New Testament.
How about Unitarians, Bitarians, Trinitarians? Where does our master Jesus teach salvation is based on how many "tarians" we believe the nature of God to be?
You've been taught these doctrines by someone and have forgotten the words of Jesus: ".......for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren."
It seems to me that people who vilify other Christians based on their doctrine are not practicing the teaching of our master. Could it be because they do not have the heart of Jesus?
You've multiple posts trying to paint me as some snowflake and concerned about "offending" me or my "sensitivities". I can assure you have never offended me. I wish you'd get to the point instead of slinging repeated ad hominem posts at me. This type of behavior is not considered discussion. Last I checked this was a "discussion" forum.
Now a bit of reality about "judging":
Perhaps I should of made myself clear(er). We all judge doctrine, what's good, what's evil, what's prudent. But what someone else's relationship or ultimate standing with God is not for us to judge. Therefore; for example judging if people are in or out of God's grace or saved or not depending on their belief or lack of belief in the Trinity is not for you to judge.
Btw: this ^^^ is what you need to deal with rather than feigning concern about my so called delicate sensitivities. Perhaps you'll understand this:
> Dude, don't worry about me, deal with the facts!<
I'm glad you can back what you claim. This should be paramount when making claims. You are correct on both accounts; JW's and LDS beliefs about Jesus.
However:
Where does Jesus teach such beliefs about him matter? Do you think God cares about the various spiritual theories people have about Him?
If these people believe Jesus was sent by God (messiah), spoke the words of God and they follow his teachings do you think God condemns them because they haven't precisely and accurately defined the spiritual person of Jesus the same as others?
Even if they are wrong. Since when is "salvation" based on the accurate definition of the spiritual entity of Jesus?
A man came to Jesus asking what should he do to have eternal life? Did Jesus answer; Believe in me? Or; Keep the commandments?
Salvation is Grace thru faith, not by having right doctrine, not by repenting of sin, not because one is baptized, nor is a person saved because the read the Word or fellowship with other believers.
Salvation is a gift, a free gift when a person trusts Messiah, BUT what Messiah are they believing, the one their religion teaches, OR the one in the Scriptures revealed by the Holy Spirit.
John 16 verses 13-15
13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14“He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Forgive the following digression; I must admit at first I didn't give much credence to your posts because of your screen name. However I have been reading them and have come to realize you are well read and not just swallowing hook line and sinker the doctrines of others.
I disagree with what your screen name purports. However from reading your posts I think this is a conclusion you've come to through extensive study. Therefore I'd like to discuss the matter with you. If you agree, please start a new thread and I will participate. Not to argue with you, but discuss. (I may be passionate about my beliefs, but don't please don't confuse that with being argumentative).
I believe more as the Book of James teaches; It is neither faith nor works that saves but the synergistic effect of both. Where Grace comes it is a totally different matter.
Okay back to the OP and your comment:
Yes, I've heard it taught before about belief in a "different Messiah". But that is kinda subjective when everyone is pointing to the same first century jewish nazarene. My point is: where does Jesus or Scripture teach salvation is based on knowing the spiritual identity of Jesus. Or the Holy Spirit. If it is as important as people make it out to be, then I'd think Scripture would make it a paramount clear teaching.
12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life." 13 So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going. 15 "You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.
16 "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone [in it], but I and the Father who sent Me.
17 "Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of two men is true.
18 "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." 19 So they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."
20 These words He spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one seized Him, because His hour had not yet come.
21 Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."
I have given a bit of context, lets look at verses.
In both verses 12 and 24 Messiah says I AM, but in verse 24 He says the a person is to believe who He is or they will die in their sins.
Yes, good verse and the only one that I know of that comes close. But let's look at some textual context. John was written very late and is the most theological developed of all the Gospels. One excepts to see a verse like this. But what is really being said here?
The "I Am" is a mistranslation of the Hebrew. Someone is trying to tie it back to Moshe where YHWH says; 'I Am that I Am". Except in Hebrew that is not what it says. Rather the correct translation of Exdous 3:14 is; "I shall be what I shall be".
Skipping ahead; exactly what is Y'shua conveying? I think it is very clear; Unless one believes HaShem sent Y'shua as the Messiah for their day. They will not listen and heed his warnings; his call to repent and observe Torah correctly. Then they will die in their sins.
This is not a 'veiled Trinity' passage. One has to be a little creative to with the Hebrew to make it a Binitarianism passage. In reality I'd say it's neither. Its just Jesus saying plainly it they don't believe he is Messiah they will die in their sins.
I understand your position that you do not believe Messiah is GOD the Son, but rather just a man sent from YHWH.
I would like to know how you believe that a person is saved from the wrath of GOD Almighty, please explain.
Also explain this Scripture, thanks.
Matthew 14 verses 22 - 33
22 Immediately He made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side, while He sent the crowds away. 23 After He had sent the crowds away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray; and when it was evening, He was there alone.
24 But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary.
25 And in the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea.
26 When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, "It is a ghost!" And they cried out in fear.
27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, "Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid."
28 Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water." 29 And He said, "Come!" And Peter got out of the boat, and walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!"
31 Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped.
33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"
Verse 27 needs to be translated in order to have the right understanding of what Messiah is saying.
In verse 31, Messiah says to Peter, Why did you doubt; What could Peter have been doubting to recieve a rebuke from Messiah.
Why do the men worship Messiah, when YHWH is the only one to be worshipped.
You say; "I understand your position that you do not believe Messiah is GOD the Son, but rather just a man sent from YHWH."
>Thank you for stating what you think I believe. It gives me an opportunity to clarify. Matthew 11:27 says; "....no one knows the Son except the Father...." This is what I believe 'period'. To go beyond Scripture is fine as long as one realizes it is speculation rather than salvation dependent doctrine. All that can really be said from Scripture is God was manifested through Jesus the messiah. As to his "identity", Jesus himself says no one knows except the Father. This leaves open various possibilities; man, arch angel, god, God, something unknown or a combination thereof.<
You asked; "I would like to know how you believe that a person is saved from the wrath of GOD Almighty, please explain."
>Believe in and do the teachings of Jesus which is the correct way to keep Torah (Gods instructions for life). This is what Jesus taught<
"Also explain this Scripture"
>This Scripture ties back to the Old Testament showing God controls the wind and sea.
Verse 33 is the one we should concentrate on. First off one should notice Jesus is called "God's Son" rather than "God". Therefore he is worshipped not as God, but as God's Son. Next; two words we need to look at: "Son" and "worship". "Son" indicates a special relationship with the Father. For example Israel is called God's son. Jesus has a special relationship with the Father; that of a Son. "Worship" is a word that relies on the context of what is being worshipped. It can mean to bow down, show respect to men and angels. However only God is to be worshipped as "God". Therefore there is nothing wrong with "worshipping" Jesus as God's Son. This is different than worshipping him as God.<
"What could Peter have been doubting to recieve a rebuke from Messiah."
>The fact we have to ask this shows it is not explicitly taught, therefore it is open to speculation.<
"Why do the men worship Messiah, when YHWH is the only one to be worshipped."
>I explained the different modes of worship dependent on what is being worshipped above ^^^.
It's not that I discount various speculations, rather I take issue with those who go beyond Scripture and attempt to make it binding. Wasn't this Jesus' issue with the Pharisees?
I have three questions for you:
1) Where does Scripture teach to worship Messiah as God?
2) Where does Scripture teach a persons salvation is dependent on worshipping Jesus as God?
3) Where does Scripture teach a person must know the spiritual identity of Jesus to avoid "God's wrath"?
**ANOTHER SATANIC STATEMENT BY GRACENOTWORKSSAVES**:
"The blood of Messiah is the purchase price for the forgiveness of sins Hebrews 9. The blood does not forgive anyone, the **PERSON** IS THE ONE WHO FORGIVES**"{???}
**SALVATION IS 100% FREE**
Titus 3:3,4: At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and **LOVE** of God our Savior appeared , He saved us, **NOT BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUS THINGS WE HAD DONE**, but because of **HIS MERCY**!!
John 1:12,13: To all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God--children born not of natural descent, **NOR OF A HUMAN DECISION** or a husband's will but, **BORN OF GOD**!!
John 6:37,39,44,65: Jesus says, "**ALL** that the Father gives Me **WILL** come to Me, and whoever comes to Me I will **NEVER** drive away... And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall **LOSE NONE** of all that He has given Me, but raise them up at the Last Day.... No one can come to Me **UNLESS** the Father who sent Me **DRAWS HIM**, and I will raise him up at the Last Day!!... No one can come to Me **UNLESS** the Father has **ENABLED THEM**!!"
Ephesians 2:8,9: For it is by **GRACE** you have been saved, through **FAITH**—and this **NOT FROM YOURSELVES**, it is the **GIFT OF GOD**—not by works. So that no one can boast. For we are **GOD'S WORKMANSHIP**, created in Christ Jesus to do **GOOD WORKS**, which God prepared in advance for us to do!
Romans 12:3: For by the **GRACE GIVEN ME** I say to every one of you. Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourselves with sober judgment, in accordance with the **FAITH GOD HAS DISTRIBUTED TO EACH OF YOU**... We have different gifts, according to the **GRACE GIVEN TO EACH OF US**!!
Romans 9:15,16,18: God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy...Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. {But God's saints still preach God's Word to everyone}
John 15:16: Jesus says, You did not choose Me, but I **CHOSE YOU**and appointed you so that you might bear **FRUIT**--**FRUIT** that will last!!
Matthew 22:14: Jesus says, "MANY ARE INVITED**, but few are **CHOSEN**!"
Mar 13:20: Jesus says, "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no on would survive, but for the sake of the **ELECT**, whom He has **CHOSEN**, He has shortened them!"
John 13:18: Jesus says, "I am not referring to all of you, I know those I have **CHOSEN**!
Ephesians 1:4-8; 11,12: In love He **PREDESTINED** us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will--to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves, In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding... In Him we were also **CHOSEN**, having been **PREDESTINED** in accordance to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity to the purpose of His will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be to the **PRAISE OF HIS GLORY**!!
I Thessalonians 1:4: For we know, brothers loved by God, that He has **CHOSEN YOU**, because our Gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction!
I Peter 2:9: But you are a **CHOSEN PEOPLE**, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you might declare the praise of Him who **CALLED YOU** out of darkness into His wonderful light!!
Revelation 17:14: They will make war against the **LAMB** but the **LAMB** will overcome them because He is **LORD** of lords and **KING** of kings and with Him will be His **CALLED** **CHOSEN** and **FAITHFUL** followers!! {Riding on white horses right after the Marriage Feast of the **LAMB** as per Revelation 19:7-20!}
Romans 6:23: The wages of sin is death, but the **GIFT OF GOD** is **ETERNAL LIFE**!
God's Word clearly teaches that faith, salvation, the Holy Spirit and eternal life are all 100 percent **FREE GIFTS OF GOD** and that salvation is completely paid for by the **PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST**
**ARE WE ONLY REDEEEMED AND OUR SINS FORGIVEN BY THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST??**
John 13:34,35: Jesus says, "**A NEW COMMAND** I give you: Love one another **AS I HAVE LOVED YOU**, so you must love one another!" John 15:12,13: "Jesus says, "My command is this: Love each other **AS I HAVE LOVED YOU**. Greater love has no one than this, that **HE LAY DOWN HIS LIFE** for his friends!"
Matthew 26:28: Jesus says, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many **FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS**!"
Galatians 2:18-21: I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me! The life I live in the body, I live by **FAITH** in the Son of God, who loved me and **GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME**!! I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!!
Hebrews 9:12: He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by **HIS OWN BLOOD**, having obtained **ETERNAL REDEMPTION**!
Hebrews 9:22; 26-28: The law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood **THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS**.... But now He has appeared **ONCE FOR ALL** at the end of the ages to do away with sin **BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF**!! Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, and Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people, and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him!!
Ephesians 2:13: But now in Christ Jesus you who were once were far away have been brought near **THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST**!!
Hebrews 10:8-10: First He said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor were You pleased with them," although the law required them to be made. Then He said, "Here I am, I have come to do Your will." He sets aside the first **TO ESTABLISH THE SECOND**. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ **ONCE FOR ALL**!!
Romans 3:21-25: But now a righteousness from God, **APART FROM THE LAW**, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes **THROUGH FAITH** in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by **HIS GRACE** through the **REDEMPTION** that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a **SACRIFICE OF ATONEMENT**, **THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD**!!
Colossians 1:15-20: He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the **HEAD OF HIS BODY, THE CHURCH**; He is the beginning and the firstborn from the dead, so that is **EVERYTHING HE MIGHT HAVE THE SUPREMACY**. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things **ON EARTH** or things in heaven, by making peace **THROUGH HIS BLOOD**, shed on the cross!!
Colossians 2:13-15: When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you **ALIVE WITH CHRIST**. He forgave us **ALL OUR SINS**, having canceled the written code, with its regulation, that was against us and that stood opposed to us, He took it away, **NAILNG IT TO THE CROSS**!!.
Ephesians 1:3-8; 11: Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with **EVERY** spiritual blessing in Christ. For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and **BLAMELESS** in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will--to the praise of His **GLORIOUS GRACE**, which He has freely given us in the One He loves. In Him we have **REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD**, **THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS**, in accordance the riches of God's grace that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding!!
I Peter 1:18,19: For you know that was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were **REDEEMED** from the empty way of life handed down to you by your forefathers, but with the **PRECIOUS BLOOD OF CHRIST**, Lamb without blemish or defect!!
I Peter 2:24,25: He Himself **BORE OUR SINS** in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness, by **HIS WOUNDS** we are healed {See Isaiah 53:5,6}!! For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls!!
I Peter 3:18 For Christ **DIED FOR SINS ONCE FOR ALL**, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God!!
I John 2:1,2: My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have One who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the **ATONING SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS**, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world!!
I John 4:10-12: This is **LOVE**, not that we loved God, but that He **LOVED** us and sent His Son as an **ATONING SACRIFICE** for our sins. Dear friends, since God so **LOVED** us, we also ought to **LOVE** one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we **LOVE** one another, God **LIVES IN US** and His **LOVE** is made complete in us.
Revelation 1:4,5: Grace and peace to you from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful Witness... To Him who loves us and freed us from our sins **BY HIS BLOOD**!!
NOTE: Jesus Christ our Savior is called the **LAMB** of God **30 TIMES** in the book of Revelation because He did away with all lamb sacrifices for sin by the sacrifice of Himself!!
Revelation 5:6,9: Then I saw a **LAMB**, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne...You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because You were slain, and **WITH YOUR BLOOD** You purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation!!
Revelation 12:11: They overcame him by the **BLOOD OF THE LAMB** and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death!!
Revelation 7:14: These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation, they have was their robes and made them white in the **BLOOD OF THE LAMB**!!
Isaiah 53:5,6: But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed! We all, like sheep, have gone astray , each of us has turned to his own way, and **THE LORD HAS LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL**!!
Romans 5:6-10: You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless. Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His love for us in this: While we were still sinners Christ died for us. Since we are now justified **BY HIS BLOOD**, how much more will we be saved from God's wrath through Him! When we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to Him **THROUGH THE DEATH OF HIS SON**!!
I am not saying this to be rude, just some constructive criticism. Your long long long long long long long long long posts that go on and on and on and on and on and on and on with bible verse after bible verse after bible verse does nothing but clogging up and ruining the discussion and quite frankly is rather irritating.
>>>The Bible says it only takes two witnesses to establish a matter!<<<
"A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
-Deuteronomy 19:15
"Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
