Thread: Appling Galatians 3: 27-18, Romans 2: 28-29 and Other NT Texts To the Identity of the 144,000
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Appling Galatians 3: 27-18, Romans 2: 28-29 and Other NT Texts To the Identity of the 144,000
Posted : 11 Nov, 2013 03:09 PM
"Understanding what Paul is teaching in Galatians 3: 27-28 and in Romans 2; 28-29 is necessary for understanding the metaphor of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, where the word witness, martus, means both witness and martyr."
Why is understanding of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 important? Its adds to a knowledge of what is happening now and is to happen. Failing to understand this chapter leads to a rejection of knowledge. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee," Hosea 4: 6
In my post today I did not get into the 144,000 above because it would make the post longer.
The 144,000, seen in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5, can be understood only if Galatians 3: 27-28 and Romans 2: 28-29 is understood and believed. The theologies taught in the churches do not apply Galatians 3: 27-28, Romans 2: 28-29, Romans 9: 6-8 and Galatians 4: 24-26 to an understanding of the identity of the 144,000.
The traditions of man are applied to that understanding rather than New Testament scripture. The theology called separation theology, postponement theology, Christian Zionism and the Rapture Cult, using its litralist "Hermeneutic" insists the 144,000 are all Jews. On the other hand, those Calvinists following amillennialism and maybe also those into preterism say, like the Catholics, that the 144,000 is just a general allegory for all saved people of all times.
I don't know of any Calvinists who have applied the New testament scriptures listed above to the identity of the 144,000, and like the dispensationalists, the Calvinists have no use for a Remnant of Israel, which is what the 144,000 is.
But you see, dispensationalism, starting from the postulate and not from NT scripture claims that under their "hermeneutic," from the Pagan god Hermes, the word Israel can only mean all physical Israel, and never born again Israel in Christ.
To dispensationalists a Remnant of Israel must be the Jews. I don't know what the Remnant of Israel is for a Calvinist.
So, if you start from the traditions of men, you can not understand the identity of the 144,000 and do not recognize the Remnant which is to play a role in the tribulation. This Remnant could include some were were once Jews but are now Christians and not Jews, since they have been born again in Christ.
If you start from NT scripture, and believe that the word of God is absolute truth, the Remnant of Israel, seen in Revelation 12: 17, by way of Daniel 11: 33, teach some of the "Two Witnesses" who have been spiritually "killed off" by the army of false prophets of Revelation 9:16-19, and in Revelation 11: 11 those who accept the testimony of Jesus Christ given by the Remnant are given the "Spirit of life from God."
Many church people do not like it when a number of scriptures drawn from both the Old and New Testaments and various parts of each are brought together and applied to an interpretation of texts, such as those on the 144,000.
The church people have been taught a comparmentalized way of understanding scripture, which makes it easier to deceive them into following the traditions of men - like dispensationalism or amillennialism.
But to change from dispensationalism or amillennialism (or historicism) to the truth on the role of the 144,000 involves a large change, especially for some coming out of the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2: 10-12. Only a holistic approach using the all the counsel of God (Acts 20: 27) can help them some out of the delusion, and then only by God reaching down to change them can they come out of it.
The argument or quarrel between interpreting Revelation 7 and 14 on the 144,000 by scripture or by the tradition of men can easily become endless and fruitless - unless the Lord opens the door for the truth.
But, following I Corinthians 11: 19 - "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you" - there must be an interpretation of the 144,000 and of the role of the Remnant of Israel in the scenarios of the tribulation period (now) which is not true in order for that which is true to stand out in its truth - but only to those who understand it.
Appling Galatians 3: 27-18, Romans 2: 28-29 and Other NT Texts To the Identity of the 144,000
Posted : 12 Nov, 2013 07:00 PM
While i agree with you that the Church meaning the people that believe in Jesus is one body, many parts but of the same body. There are also many unfulfilled scriptures concerning the nation of Israel. These will be fulfilled without a doubt in my mind. HOW??? God knows.
Once did a study, actually bits and pieces of info from the bible of the history in the old testament. Finally about 12 years ago i put together a chart in time line form from Adam to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. By the way i went from1 at Adam and counted forward like it happened. There were some interesting things. Enoch lived 365 years and was taken to heaven by God. The same number of days in a year. The Hebrew way of counting the years of slavery is from when Ismael mocked Isaac which i believe to be wrong. Counting from when the king that did not know Joseph and adjusting their calender there is like an 18 year difference between theirs and ours.
The main point that fits the discussion is that Abram, later Abraham the father of the Hebrews was born the year of 1948, the Hebrew nation was REBORN in a day as scripture says in the year of our Lord 1948.
SO There is still things to do with the Jewish people. The bible says they will ask about His wounds when He returns.
Appling Galatians 3: 27-18, Romans 2: 28-29 and Other NT Texts To the Identity of the 144,000
Posted : 13 Nov, 2013 12:47 AM
What does being born again in John 3: 1-12 mean? And remember that Jesus is talking here to Nicodemus, a Pharisee. You can't just make up your own view of what being born again means, and leaning to your own understanding say whatever your opinion wants to say. Christ in John 3: 1-12 did not go into detail on what changes in an individual and in physical Israel - the remnant which accepted Christ - being born again would bring about. Christ left this job to Paul (Acts 26: 15-18) and to Peter and John to some extent. Since Nicodemus is said to have to be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of God, then anyone else must also be born again to do so, including those who were thought to have been the chosen people under the Old Covenant. In being born again, everyone is changed. As far as Jews and non-Jews who are both in Christ are concerned, when both are born again, the old identity of the Jew in the physical things of the Old Covenant, including the blood line from Abraham, is put away, and the identity of the former Jew in the physical, is over, as Paul says in Romans 2: 28, "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly." The former Jew's identity is then in Jesus Christ, and in a born again Israel, not in the church. Nor is the identity of the non-Jew who is born again in the church.
When those who claim to be Christians try to separate again those who were formerly Jews from those who were formerly non-Jews the leaven of the Pharisees has to be understood. The leaven of the Pharisees is in Matthew 16: 6, 12, "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees......Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." Mark 8: 15, interestingly, says to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. Christ said to beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees, which means the doctrines they taught.
Which doctrines of the Pharisees have to be avoided? All of them except those on the moral part of the Law which agree with the New Testament.
Then, when upholding all physical Israel as a house, which rejected Christ - though a remnant accepted him (Romans 11: 5) - the spirit of anti-Christ of I John 4; 3 should be understood. Christ came to bring spiritual life and it more abundantly (John 10: 10), and so rejection of Christ is acceptance of Death, which is the spirit of anti-Christ.
Trying to teach that physical Israel as a house, which rejected Christ, and became part of the spirit of anti-Christ, remains now the chosen people does away with a part of the Gospel of Christ, that all must be born again in him, that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile and that the physical Jew no longer exists in Christ (Romans 2: 28-20)... In other words, the issue of the separation or non-separation of Jew and Gentile who are in Christ has become an issue which defines what the Gospel is, and what Christianity is about.
Appling Galatians 3: 27-18, Romans 2: 28-29 and Other NT Texts To the Identity of the 144,000
Posted : 13 Nov, 2013 09:45 AM
If i understand you correctly you are saying everyone that believes in Jesus is in the same house? YES
Are you also saying that the Jewish people of the first century made a decision that put the whole house of Israelis into the realm of antichrist??
If so please read more.
Lev 26:14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
Lev 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
Lev 26:17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
Lev 26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
Lev 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
Lev 26:22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
Lev 26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
Lev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
Lev 26:26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
Lev 26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
Lev 26:31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
Lev 26:32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
Lev 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
Lev 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
Lev 26:35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
Lev 26:36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
Lev 26:37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
Lev 26:38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
Lev 26:39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.
Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
Lev 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Yes they would be punished and they were punished horribly. Never the less unlike the Hittites, or the Philistines they returned to the land, God made it happen and there are more scriptures saying this than i want to look up.
The fact is they are a house, MOST of them do NOT believe that Jesus is the Son of God YET they have a role to play in the end times JUST like the bible says. When Jesus returns the ones that are left will say: Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Appling Galatians 3: 27-18, Romans 2: 28-29 and Other NT Texts To the Identity of the 144,000
Posted : 13 Nov, 2013 10:32 AM
Many who believe that all physical Israel remain now the chosen people will reply to quotes of NT scripture that clearly say the opposite, such as Romans 2; 28-29, Romans 9: 6-9 or Galatians 3: 3-29 with arguments from the side, that is, they do not try to overthrow these NT scriptures. Instead, they try to say that the person who upholds these NT scripture is just arguing from his own opinion. They misrepresent the statements of the other,and argue against something that may or may not be related to the main point of these NT scriptures.
Bringing up one verse of Zechariah 13 is a little better than sidestepping the issue, or misrepresenting the position of the opponent.
Zechariah 13: 1 says "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness." Then verses 2-5 are about false prophets.
Verse 6 says "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, These with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."
Then Zechariah 14: 16-20 talks about keeping the feast of tabernacles. But Colossians 2: 16-17 says not to let anyone judge you in respect to a holyday, or the sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come.
The Old Testament cannot overthrow doctrines of the New Testament. But the traditions of men can seem to do so, while the scripture still stands.
In Acts 15: 15-17 James quotes Amos 9: 11 and says to this agree the words of the prophets. James says prophets, not just Amos, which would include Zechariah's prophecy in Chapters 13 and 14. James was responding to Peter's statement that God now put no difference between us (the Jews who believed) and the Gentiles (verse 9). James is saying that Amos 9: 11 and similar prophecies, like Hosea 3: 5, Micah 5:2 and Zechariah 13 and 14 are prophecies about the rebirth of physical Israel in Christ as a new spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5-9).
