Are the two of you judging people's salvation now? How dare either of you, or anyone else for that matter, make such a statement? Did Jesus come down and divinely give you this right? My Bible says to judge myself, not everyone else.
If you belong to any church that has to talk about other denominations, maybe it is time to find a church that follows the Bible. I am so tired of "Christians" that have to find fault with every other denomination out there. Look at what this is, it is the Pharisees and the Sadducees all over again. Only we are right, and everyone else has it wrong. Well guess what, Jesus despised both of them. It is never our place to judge salvation. If someone tells you they are a Christian, you have to take their word for it because you don't know what is in their hearts.
I will pray for both of you, but I would be seeking God about now if I were you. I am sorry this is so harsh, but this has to end. If you really want to do some good, save people that don't already claim to be saved. Lydia, your ministry is a great thing, get it going and drop the hate. Just because someone doesn't agree with you is no reason to persecute them. Walter, you know better, repent and get back on track.
You may be right Leon, I dont know, but a verse that goes along with what you said, the Lord knows who are his, and let everyone who names the name of christ depart from inniquity. At least about God knowing peoples hearts
Just to clear up some things that you posted. Number one I am not angry at nor do I hate the JWs or any other cult. Just the opposite is true, my heart breaks for them.
All that Walter and myself were expressing is our understanding of what the Jws believe based on their own publications and teachings. Since when has quoting their own teachings and comparing them to what the Bible says become hate?
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
We never said that they were bad people, in fact the JWs and the Mormans do good works in that they feed the poor.
The churches that I attended provided this material ( their own publications ) so that when they come to our door , we will be better able to witness to them by understanding what they believe. The churches that I have attended are non denominatinal and do not bash other denominations. However I do not a single Christian who believes that the JWs are a Christian denomination.
Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Leon, your angry post is no different than others that we have seen on this site, when someone does not agree with ones point of view. I have found your post to Walter and myself untrue and offensive.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God....1st Corinthians 4:1-5
I agree with you Leon, that we Do Not have the right to judge a persons salvation, because we can not see the heart, or know the ultimate decisions that one might make before he finally meets the True JUDGE.
But at the same time we do have the obligation to Judge false doctrines that may put a stumbling block in front of HIS Saints.
Romans 14:11-13: For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
And we do have the right & responsibility to Judge & even remove (by disfellowshipping) those who are in gross sin within the Church. But even then the ultimate purpose should be to make them keenly aware of their apostasy, that they might repent & return.
As in 1st Corinthians 5:1-13 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within?
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
But neither can we say that The J.W.s are any more guilty or profuse with their sins than any in "Christendom"
Although J.W.s do denounce "Christendom" they do at least claim to be Of/In Christ...even though they dont perceive Just Who Christ really Is/Was...
But I think many "Denominations" are ignorant about some important things about Christ too...So Far...
I disagree with a few things from each of the denominations, but I also like to think that Each One seems to have at least One Important Point of Emphasis that they stress a little more than other denominations..
And I do even know of one thing that I Believe In, that the J.W.s also happen to teach too...
But perhaps I would not have ever even noticed it except a J.W. Witnessed it to me, somewhere along the line.
Call me what U will but, I think it is an Abomination to put my hand over my heart & Pledge My Allegiance to A Piece of Cloth, especially one that contains the colors that make up the purple or scarlet wrap of the harlot of babylon...
At least the J.W.s wont have to try to Explain That One To Christ At The Judgement!!!
I Think The Hearts Of Men Will Become More Apparent
During the Refining Fires of The Great Tribulation.
And At That Time I Think We Will Be Standing &/Or Falling Alongside With Those Who Were Formerly Known As:
Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Latter Day Saints, etc... &
Oh Yea, Those Sincere, Hardworking (Pesky?)J.W.s Too.
YHWHs People, "CHRISTians" Will Be Found & Gathered From All Sects & Sectors...In Spite of Our Present Ignorance...
I think I was just as offended by the questioning of others' salvation.
There is a huge difference between witnessing to someone and saying you don't think they are saved.
I think the JWs are wrong on many issues as well, but it is not my job to say they can not be saved if they believe the way they do. This type of exclusionary thinking is exactly what they do. That will never make it right.
We can witness, we can tell them why we think they are wrong, we can debate scriptures, (all of which I have done with them) but we are never to question anyone's salvation. God alone knows who is saved. Why is it so hard to admit that you crossed the line on this one?
I love you and Walter, and I value our friendship, but you were wrong on this one.
I am surprised at your post to Lydia and myself and feel it is necessary to address your comments. You know I sincerely love you my Brother and I do not wish you to interpret this response as anything other then addressing your post in Christian love.
First off...Lydia and myself never wrote in any anger nor expressed any hatred. We have no need to repent as we have not sinned as we have not judged any individual's heart. Exposing the heretical teachings that lead a person to damnation is not judging a person's heart. Please demonstrate where it is.
Secondly, I do not believe addressing the beliefs of any religion and then showing scriptures that demonstrates their serious errors to be wrong at all. Have not both of us addressed the issue of the Gifts of the Spirit and how Charismatics have erred. What's the difference?
When addressing a "Cult" such as Jehovah's Witnesses, there is nothing wrong with showing how dangerous their beliefs are and how they do not conform to what a Christian Faith is. They are not a denomination of Christianity. They are not Christian. The Bible tells us to contend for the faith and expose False teachings especially if they are Heretical.
Stating that if one believes as they believe then that person is not saved is an accurate statement. Paul was very strong when he contended for the faith and addressed heretical teachings. The scriptures are very clear regarding the bodily resurrection of Christ which they absolutely deny. This is a fundamental teaching of theirs and it is fundamentally in direct opposition to the Christian faith. Is it possible that there are some JWs that might not believe this and might be saved by the skin of their chin? Possibly. Was either Lydia or myself judging every single JWs's heart and if they are saved or not? We never said that nor did we imply it.
Leon....I replied to your previous post where you seemed to imply that JWs are Christian and saved. You had stated that you had studied with them as well and knew what they believed. Your post gave me pause because it was a contradiction to what I knew full well what they believed. So I went to Carm.org where I knew they had some research on JWs and they confirmed what I already knew. I provided proof and exposed their seriously bad heretical teachings. For some reason this seemed to upset you and you made false allegations as to Lydia and myself being hateful and judging people's hearts which is not an accurate assessment on your part my brother.
If someone believes and teaches that Jesus did not bodily resurrect from the dead, are they saved? Are they a Christian or not? This is a yes or no answer...nothing complicated here.
I don't think it was Lydia and myself who have a problem admitting to being wrong. Perhaps you should reconsider in prayer your personal attacks and see what God would reveal to you.
Walter, I have no problem with you proving their beliefs are erroneous. I agree with you on most of them. I had never heard that about the bodily resurrection, but like I said, I have a lot of literature and will look it up. They wanted to recruit me badly and I have a better library than many of their members.
The only thing that sent up red flags for me, was when you both started saying you didn't think they were saved. I will not get in to everything here, but it made me upset that any of us would question the salvation of anyone who claims to be Christian. I thought about how that would make someone feel who was a JW, and it upset me even more.
I apologize for upsetting you and Lydia, I was upset and should have waited to post a response.
I do agree with much of what you said about their beliefs, actually with about everything. I can think of a couple of things that are off a bit, but overall you did well. I posted what I did because those websites and the papers people write about these groups are mostly for shock value. I didn't argue many of your points, I confirmed them with the reasoning of the other side. I think you would be surprised at their use and reasoning of scriptures to prove their points. I do not agree with their beliefs, so I will not post them, but if you are interested I will mail them to you for study.
We can refute beliefs without questioning salvation, and that is all I was upset about. Not your refuting their beliefs. I have their books. I could have buried you in scripture to argue their side, but I will not do that for two reasons.
1) I don't believe as they do, and
2) Someone on here might read it and think it makes sense.
while its not our job to judge people, for even if we tried, it would be pointless... God is the judge.
just because someone claims to be a christian, it doesnt make them a christian.
if JW are christians then why would we witness to them? what makes them christians?
"the term christian first occurs in Acts11:26 as a derisive name used by the Antiocheans for the followers of Jesus. In 1 Peter 4:16 it is found as kind of a legal charge like "thief" or "murderer"; it also appears in this sense in Roman accounts, to describe the victims of Nero's persecution. The point here is, by the second century, when the church adopted it for its members, the term already had a history of application to the particular movement known previously as "the Way" (Acts 19:9,23;24:14,22), which had emerged from judaism." -Randall Price (searching for the original bible)
thw JW didnt emerge untill around the 1800's?
if we are not able to assume whether or not someone is saved, then how are we to know if we can witness to them? if we cant use biblical scripture to show that the jw's are not christians, then who am i to do the same for anyone who claims they are a christian... If my sister claims to be a christian, but yet i know she is a JW... am i to stand still and let her be lead to destruction, because i am afraid to "judge" her? she claimed she is a christian, so does that mean that i can not witness to her?
it is contradicting to say "its ok to witness to them, but its not ok to say they arent saved." because if i am not saying "they arent saved", then i am saying they "are saved"... and if thats what i am saying, then there is no need to witness to them. that doesnt make sense... before i witness to someone i need to assume that he isnt saved. if i assume he is saved, then there is no need to witness to him.
i had an elder come up to me to talk to me about taking communion, because he wasnt sure i was saved... so he wanted to make sure, and he came up to me and asked me some questions... at first i was a little offended... but later i got over it... my elder wasnt judging me, he loved me... he wanted to be sure that i am on the right path... wouldnt God hold him accountable if he did nothing cause he "didnt" want to judge, and here i am burning in hell because i said i was a christian when i wasnt. why didnt no one confront me?
same thing the JW's will be saying... "why did no one tell me?" and are you going to respond "because i didnt want to judge you"?
