1 Timothy 2:11,12 A woman must quietly recieve instruction with entire submissiveness.But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
actually those verses say what they say and are the Word of God.There is nowhere in the context of them that says they are for a specific group of women.I agree there are female prophets,but I think Joyce Meyer is sinful in what she is doing.She needs to read 1 Timonthy 2:12 and take those verses for what they say without adding any false interpretation to them.Paul wrote those verses for all women.Check the context.
"but I think Joyce Meyer is sinful in what she is doing.She needs to read 1 Timonthy 2:12 and take those verses for what they say without adding any false interpretation to them.Paul wrote those verses for all women.Check the context."
Let me ask you the same thing I asked my cousin, who is a Baptist Pastor. What difference does this make to you, one way or the other? I am not guilty of her sin if she is wrong, and only she and God know what He has called her to do. It has nothing to do with me, I can even be blessed by some of their teachings.
Now, with that said, I do believe the bible is very clear about a woman not teaching a man, and not having authority over him. I do think that the reason for this has nothing to do with her inability to do so. I think it was because Paul knew how easily men are led astray by a woman.
As far as I know, Joyce Meyers has a women's ministry that some men choose to attend. But her main demographic is women. Is it her fault that men choose to come?
I, personally think it is wrong, but I don't know their calling, so I am leaving this one up to God. If we men are honest, it is pride that makes us so passionate about this, and I do know that is a sin.
I think it is biblically true that women serve as Pastors. if you are interested in knowing more about it will share it with you. I know it is one of the most debatable issues in the theological field, but we can carefully and selflessly study and see what was Paul's meaning when he said that, and that he was saying that the church of his time and the church in the future women shouldn't serve as Pastors or hold any other leadership position in the church.
If you really want to do a study on this, my friend Walter posted this on here recently. It is very in depth, and should answer your questions.
Women Pastors. Is it biblical?
By Walter Diaz
There is much debate between Charismatic Churches and Conservative Churches concerning the issue of the role of women in the Church particularly when it comes to leadership positions such as Pastor/Bishops, Deacons and Elders. I believe that God�s word is absolutely clear on this issue. Let�s see what it says.
1Corinthians 14:34 the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the law also says.
35 If they want to learn anything, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is inappropriate for a woman to speak out in church.
36 Did God's word originate with you? Are you the only people it has reached?
37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he must acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command.
But if anyone ignores this, he should be ignored. (ISV)
Above we see that Paul, considered to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, is addressing Christians and women�s obligations within the Church environment. Paul was not prejudiced against women as some claim. I want you to notice what Paul says in verse 37.
That the things he writes are the Lord�s Command.
Not a suggestion and not just something for the current times he was writing in but are a commandment of Christ the Lord. This means for all time. It is not a cultural thing as some in the Charasmatic churches claim. If that were true then we can just throw out the entire bible and say it was only for them way back then too. So the question is this. If a women is to keep silent while in Church, then how can she be a Pastor and preach? She can�t. But let�s continue.
1 Tim2: 9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,
10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
Notice here that Paul is being very clear on the issue of women not being allowed to teach or have authority over a man. It is charged by Charasmatics that since Paul said �I� in verse 12 then he was just giving HIS opinion. Unfortunately for them that would be an improper understanding. Since Paul already said that it was the Lord�s Commandment for women to keep silent in church, this statement of his is in keeping with the consistency and harmony of scriptures. The passage is gender specific and the Greek fully supports this. Husband is gender specific. A woman cannot be a Husband as a man cannot be a wife either. Again Paul is being consistent in his teachings as he is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and in this passage he is not giving his opinion. Paul only gave his opinion on a few things and when he did he was clear to say that it was NOT the Lord but he that was giving the statement. That is not the case here. Paul says a woman cannot teach a man or be in authority over a man. This means the Lord said it via the Holy Spirit.
This forbids a woman from being in any leadership position over a man within the Church. This obviously forbids a woman from preaching to a church or any church environment where men are present. Let�s continue with why this is so.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self�control.
The reason, is that women are more easily deceived as was the case in the Garden in Genesis. It was Adam who was first made and then Eve and then it was Eve who was deceived by Satan, NOT Adam.
1 Tim 2:1 � This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, {Literally overseer} he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober�minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach;
From G1909 and G4649 (in the sense of G1983); a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer.
3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;
4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence
5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Again we see that the position of a Bishop which is the same as a Pastor, MUST be a Husband, which is gender specific, which is a MAN. Women are precluded from this position.
What about the term Pastors? It only appears once in the New Testament.
Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,(NKJV)
Pastor: 4166 poimhn poimen poy-mane� of uncertain affinity; TDNT-6:485,901; n m
AV-shepherd 15, Shepherd 2, pastor 1; 18
1) a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaph.
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes
8 � Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double�tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
11 Likewise their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (NKJV)
The position of Deacon is a gender specific however there are such positions as "deaconess". A Deacon and Deaconess are not positions of leadership of authority per se as they are more of a position of serving in subjection to Elders and Pastors.
Every passage we have seen and every definition prohibits women from teaching, preaching or being in any leadership position of authority over a man within the Church. This is the consistent teaching of God�s Holy Word and when a woman goes against this teaching she is in direct disobedience to God�s Holy Word. She is in disobedience to God as well as any male Pastor who allows this in his church. God cannot and will not call a women into the ministry in any of the context listed above because to do so would make God a liar as He cannot go against His written word. There are many women who are in the ministry who will not accept this. Some have built large ministries and have a large following pulling in much tithes and offerings. Some have even purchased large estates worth millions of dollars and drive very expensive cars and wear expensive jewelry all from the money of the offerings of the church congregation! Are these women the model Christ commands for the other women to have as models?! A profound NO must be given. This shows that these women are refusing to be submissive to their husbands (if married) and to God himself. If a woman is unwilling to submit to God in this issue then she will not be willing to submit to her husband in marriage as Christ also commands that a wife must submit to her husband as unto the Lord in all things. All the verses listed above are very clear and fully supported by the Greek text. There are no scriptures that can counter the ones listed. To do so is to violate the established principles of Biblical interpretation called Hermeneutics.
Now let me say that God has used many women throughout the scriptures and still does today, but never have they been placed in leadership positions within the churches where they would be in authority over a man or in any position to teach Biblical matters in a church environment where men are present. It is very biblical however for the older women to teach the younger women, but not to teach men. Some within the Charasmatic movement charge that there were women Prophets and those who preached the gospel. Yes that is true but preaching the Gospel in public or private places is diferent than being placed in a specific "Leadership" position within the Church. Additionally a "Prophet" or "Prophetess" is NOT a "leadership" position. God simply cannot go against His written Word. It is a rebellious spirit that goes against what God has ordained and God does not ordain women in specific leadership positions nor does He allow a woman to teach or preach God's Word while men are present in a Church environment.
Some Christians make the mistake of assuming that because a Church is growing in numbers, ministries and money that it must be ordained by God and it�s God�s direct blessings. If this is the standard that we measure as to whether or not God is blessing a particular church then we would have to conclude that God must be blessing the Pornography and gambling industry too or any pagan corporation for that matter. That is simply wrong thinking. It is carnal thinking!
God has firmly set in place the roles of men and women within the Church and in the family. The question is. Are we willing to be obedient to God�s Word or are we going to try to justify sinful disobedience to God?! As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and obey!
I don't want to offend you at all, but I'm just going to be blunt.
I think you're being hypocritical.
You said that Joyce Meyers should read 1 Timothy 2:12 and take that scripture word for word. (I paraphrased you) But you also said that you are pretty sure that they all sang in church. From the scripture you posted, if you take it word for word (like you said Joyce Meyers should do) you cannot say that women making any noise in church isn't a sin.
Do you take the scriptures word for word, or do you insert your assumptions and/or opinions?
I apologize if this is harsh. It's been a long day.
Ok OK ... Now this is a subject that SPARKS my interest!! If you know the Jewish culture back during the time of Paul - you would understand that women and men were (and some orthodox synagogues still practice this today) separated from each other. Men on one side of the synagogue, women on the other or men in the front and women in the back. Put a bunch of women together and there will be A LOT of cackling, gossiping, , etc!! I ran into this retired African-American woman the other day in the store & we started talking, to find out she is a born again christian. She was born and raised in the South where the preaching was "Women are to be silent in the church - not to preach/pastor at all." She told me that the Lord spoke to her here recently and told her to PREACH His Gospel! She said to the Lord, "I'm not allowed to Preach the Word" and the Lord spoke to her again and told her to PREACH! She told me that she struggles b/c of what MAN has told her all her life!! So who do we listen to - Man or The Lord?
Now please don't take me wrong - I believe the woman needs a covering and I believe her husband is that male covering over her. I know that Lord has called me to preach and teach, but I also know that I am to wait on Him for my spouse who will be my covering & also my partner (equally yoked calling) into the ministry.
, etc!! I ran into this retired African-American woman the other day in the store & we started talking, to find out she is a born again christian. She was born and raised in the South where the preaching was "Women are to be silent in the church - not to preach/pastor at all." She told me that the Lord spoke to her here recently and told her to PREACH His Gospel! She said to the Lord, "I'm not allowed to Preach the Word" and the Lord spoke to her again and told her to PREACH! She told me that she struggles b/c of what MAN has told her all her life!! So who do we listen to - Man or The Lord?