Thread: Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
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Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 18 Mar, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Everyone,
This article I wrote will be dealing with the issue of "Eternal Security" also known as "OSAS" Once Saved Always Saved". This theology is an off shoot from Calvinism's 5th point called "Preseverance of the Saints". What some of you do not know is that the belief of OSAS or "Onced Saved Always Saved" did not exist or come into being until the 1500s AD when John Calvin invented it. Prior to that, no record is found anywhere in Church history that anyone ever believed or taught this. The consistent view of Chritianity has always been that a true Christian could forfeit their salvation should they committ the one sin called Apostasy.
Those who believe in OSAS like Southern and Independent Baptists do will claim that if a person who is truly saved will never commit Apostasy or that if they do then they were never really saved to beign with. The problem with that philosophy is that it is not supported by scripture. If a Christian was not able to commit Apostasy, to deny Christ totally, then why did God in His infinite wisdon have numerous scriptures written to warn Christians of the potential of that very thing? It seems absurd for God to warn His saved Christian children if it were not possible they could forfeit their salvation. Let's look at some scriptures that deal with this.
Let's first deal with a passage where Jesus was giving a private teaching to His 12 Disciples.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
I want you to first notice that Jesus is talking about branches that are..."IN ME" in other words in Him, these are Christians, true believers, born again. They are "IN CHRIST".
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide[continue] in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
I have interjected the word [continue] next to "abide" as that is what that word means. It also means to "remain in a given relationship".
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides [continues] in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Now notice the word ..."IF"...in the next verse. The word "IF" denotes a CHOICE, a person's free will to choose. It is also making a conditional statement...."if you continue".
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Verse 6 above is very telling. Christ has placed a condition upon a person's salvation. A person has the Free Will to continue "IN HIM" or not to and notice the consequences "IF" a person does NOT continue. They are CAST OUT, withered and they are BURNED. This is a permanent condition. Eternally condemned. You cannot re-graph a branch that has been cast out, withered and burned. There is no more hope for that "branch", that person.
Let's look at what Paul had to say.
1Cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In the above passage Paul is making a very clear statement. He is stating that a person's salvation is "conditional" by using the phrase "IF" ye keep in memory what I preached unto you". The word "IF" is a conditional word and is in every translation written. 100% of all translators used this word for this phrase as well as the passage below. What both passages are clearly stating is that our Salvation is CONDITIONAL upon our CONTINUED FAITH in the Gospel / Christ. It has nothing at all to do with works. It is our FAITH in Christ, but it is still our choice to remain/ continue or not to. FREE WILL.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Note that Paul is not telling them of their need to obtain saving faith, but of their need to CONTINUE in their saving faith that they have already obtained and the consequence IF they do not continue which is forfeiture of their salvation. There would be no warnings if the threat and consequence of Apostasy were not real.
Paul consistently encouraged his readers but usually did so after he warned them of the dangers of committing Apostasy. Let me show you a pattern of writings he did regarding salvation, the dangers of "Falling Away" from the Christian Faith Encouragement to continue in the faith and how even he himself potentially could have become an Apostate or "Reprobate"/"Castaway"
Phil 3:9 � and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 � Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind. NKJV
Acts 20:24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. NKJV
1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.NKJV
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (KJV)
There is an important analogy Paul is giving here. He is making it very clear in my opinion, that in order to receive an "imperishable crown" which we know is the crown of Life, we have to finish the race. We have to cross the finish line. Remember not everyone who is running in this race will cross the finish line.
Notice that Paul is saying that he must keep his flesh in subjection so it does not cause him to loose faith and abandon Jesus Christ. The Greek word for "castaway" is usually translated "reprobate" in the KJV. It is found in Romans 1:28, 2 Cor. 13:5,6,7, 2 Tim. 3:8, Titus 1:16, and Heb. 6:8. In the last passage it is translated "rejected." In every single case this word is used of the lost. If Paul was aware of the ever present peril of ultimately being lost through unbelief, we too need to be on guard.
Paul is again talking about running a race. He must love Track like me. LOL Notice he is encouraging his readers, who are CHRISTIANS I might add, to run the race in such a away as to receive the prize. He is not making any guarantees or any implications that they would finish the race but he encouraged them to do so. This encouragement was also more of a warning to them.
Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,NKJV
Same theme. Run the race WITH ENDURANCE. Persevere to the end.
Mat 24: 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJV
Jesus laid the foundation above that Paul continued to preach upon.
2 Tim 4: 6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
Paul knew his time to die was coming very soon and he imparted some final words.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. NKJV
Paul was ready to die and he made it plain that he had finished the race and that he had KEPT THE FAITH. What is the opposite of keeping the Faith? NOT keeping the faith. Falling back unto UNBELIEF. APOSTASY. Forfeiture of one's Salvation.
There is a distinct difference between Arminian Theology and Weslyan.
Weslyan theology, which is what Assembly of God, Methodists and a few others believe, teaches that a Christian can lose their salvation by committing certain sins like adultery and fornication and then if the person repents then they regain their salvation back. That is simply not biblical and makes their salvation somewhat of a works based faith which is not biblical.
Arminian theology teaches that once a Christian has committed Apostasy, then they can never come back. They can never be forgiven again. Once salvation has been forfeited there is no more hope for that person. Coincidentally, this is also what the Earliest Church Fathers of the first two centuries taught. :-)
There are no number of sins or sins per se that will cause a Christian to lose their salvation. There is only one sin and one sin only that causes a Christian to "Forfeit" their salvation and that sin is called "Apostasy"aka "falling away." That is a total and complete rejection of Christ and His teachings. It is falling back to a state of UNbelief.
What is "Apostasy?"
According to Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, "Apostasy" is defined as "the determined willful rejection of Christ and His teachings by a Christian Believer [Heb. 10:26-29; John 15:22]. This is different from false belief, or error, which is the result of ignorance."
The nature of apostasy requires that one be a believer first, then turn away from God.
Paul warned just as Jesus did that in the last days there WILL BE a "Falling Away" from the faith. In 2Thess 2:3 Paul gave this warning of an event that will occur. So what is it?
Neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868; properly something separative, that is, (specifically) divorce: - (writing of) divorcement.
Apostasy is akin to a Divorce. A Christian divorcing from Christ. When this occurs, you are no longer His. You are no longer a Christian. You are no longer saved.
So how does this happen to a Christian?
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF,...... in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; (KJV)
Let's examine some key points here.
1) This passage is clearly addressed to the "Brethern". These are Christians. Jewish Christians but Christians nevertheless.
2) The warning is concerning Christians possibly developing an evil heart of "UNBELIEF" and if so, their departing from the living God. You cannot depart from God unless you are with God to begin with. How does this occur?
3)" lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Here we see that staying in a sinful lifestyle can harden a Christian's heart. That is what sin does. It hardens a person's heart to a point that they can fall back to a state of UNbelief and depart from God. This is what Apostasy is. A total rejection of Christ BY a Christian believer. Hardening is something that does not occur over night. It takes time but for each individual that time will vary.
4) 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Here is the condition placed upon our salvation. We are made partakers of Christ, ..."IF" we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. What does that mean? It means that as long as we continue to believe in Christ, then we will remain a partaker of Christ.
Paul also related this same situation to the Christians in Rome. Paul was explaining to these Gentile Christians about unbelieving Israel and how some of the natural branches (Jews) were broken off so that Gentile Christians could be grafted into the vine. Then Paul gives a similar warning as Christ did.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NKJV
Paul was warning these Gentile Christians not to be haughty but to fear. In other words do not be so secure in thinking that it is not possible for you as a Christian to fall back into "unbelief" and be cut off from God just as some Jews were.
Conclusion.
The scriptures above clearly refute the False teachings of OSAS and "Perseverance of the Faith". Calvinisms 5th point cannot stand.
We as Christians have a responsibility to choose to continue in Christ, "endure until the end" or not to. God does not force salvation on anyone nor does He stop a Christian from committing Apostasy.
1Cor 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 02:58 AM
Walter,
Good try brother, but we know the trials these churches were going through from Paul's letters. We see the sexual immorality in Corinth, the legalism in Galatia, etc. Come on Walter, you might get some of these guys like that. but I know you, you are aware of these things.
The verses you are using as a warning against apostasy were speaking more about self examination than apostasy. Your mistake is assuming that Paul was talking about losing their salvation. He was trying to get people to examine themselves, to see it they were ever saved at all. Let's look at those verses you used.
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Abide means to dwell, or live. This is a warning to non believers. See where it changed? If ANYONE does not abide.
1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Believed in vain, or for no reason. This speaks of election.
23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Self examination to see if you ARE saved, not to lose it.
Everything else seems to be filler and says nothing about this. I know that we are always on opposite sides on this, but I really feel it is a false teaching in this area.
Philip, don't take it personally. Armenians always get angry when you show them the rather modern roots of their belief. If you read Romans 9, we will see the Apostle Paul teaching the basics of what would later be Calvinism.
Sorry Walter, but the WHOLE Bible has to be taken into account, in context. If there is even one verse that conflicts with your view, you are wrong. I gave you many verses that directly conflict with Armenianism.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 11:49 AM
Hi Leon,
First off let's get something straight. I am not angry and it was improper for you to say I was. You made an assumption and it was wrong.
Let's address your post. But again let me remind you that in your post you still did not properly refute my exegesis. You tried to explain it away but did not demonstrate any errors.
LEON:
Good try brother, but we know the trials these churches were going through from Paul's letters. We see the sexual immorality in Corinth, the legalism in Galatia, etc. Come on Walter, you might get some of these guys like that. but I know you, you are aware of these things.
WALTER: Nice try Leon but the warnings Paul gave were to true Christians. The so called trials you mention does not mitigate the facts.
LEON: The verses you are using as a warning against apostasy were speaking more about self examination than apostasy. Your mistake is assuming that Paul was talking about losing their salvation. He was trying to get people to examine themselves, to see it they were ever saved at all. Let's look at those verses you used.
6 IF...anyone does not abide [continue] in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Abide means to dwell, or live. This is a warning to non believers. See where it changed? If ANYONE does not abide.
WALTER: Sorry Leon but you are clearly mistaken here. Who was Jesus addressing this passage to? He was clearly talking to HIS Disciples. Were His disciples non-believers? I think not. Because Jesus was giving a direct teaching, this complies with Mat 28:19-20 thereby making this Christian Church Doctrine and applicable to us. Let's examine this passage carefully and you should see what you missed in the grammar.
First let's get the definition straight of the word "Abide". Abide means to "Continue" or "remain in a given relationship".
A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy): - abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch... IN ME... that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
It is critical to notice the words..."IN ME". Is a non-believer IN CHRIST? Of course not. Only a true believer is "IN CHRIST". The branches are "IN CHRIST". This makes it abundantly clear that Jesus is only talking about true Believers.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
LEON: 1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved,.... if.... ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Believed in vain, or for no reason. This speaks of election.
This does not speak of election at all and your assertion does not prove anything. Paul is clearly showing a "condition" of their continued salvation. Look at the grammar. "by which ye ARE SAVED.....">>>>IF.... Ye... KEEP in memory what I preached unto you."
"ARE SAVED" denotes a Present condition. The Greek supports this. They are saved.
What did they have to keep in memory? What was preached to them that caused them to be SAVED in the first place?....> The Gospel message. Then Paul states.... "unless ye have believed in vain." What does this mean? It means that it was a waste of time for them to get saved if they were not able to "keep in memory" what was preached to them....the Gospel....to continue to be "IN CHRIST".
LEON: 23 If ....ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Self examination to see if you ARE saved, not to lose it.
WALTER: Sorry Leon but again you are reading into the passage something that is simply not there. A person's final outcome does not determine if they were initially saved or not. You are interjecting a Calvinist concept into the text. You are assuming what you are trying to prove. Let's again go back and examine the grammar.
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, YET NOW HAS HE... RECONCILED
The grammar makes it clear that these people are already saved. Reconciled is past tense. The Greek confirms this. They are already reconciled.....
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight�
Now comes the "condition" of their salvation.
23 IF... indeed you.... CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Continue in this verse means to "remain" or "persevere".
What happens if they do not persevere....not continue in their faith? They are not presented to the Lord to be holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight.
LEON: Everything else seems to be filler and says nothing about this. I know that we are always on opposite sides on this, but I really feel it is a false teaching in this area.
WALTER: I believe I have demonstrated that my position on this matter is biblical. You may not accept this Leon but it is a matter of Church history that my position is the oldest and most orthodox of teachings. The Earliest Church Fathers taught the same thing and some of them were the direct Disciples of John and Paul, appointed as Church leaders. It is a fact that OSAS or Calvin's Perseverance of the Saints belief never existed until Calvin invented it in the 1500s.
LEON: Philip, don't take it personally. Armenians always get angry when you show them the rather modern roots of their belief. If you read Romans 9, we will see the Apostle Paul teaching the basics of what would later be Calvinism.
WALTER: Let me restate for the record that I am not and have never been angry at anyone on this site. This is a false statement from you Leon and I am frankly surprised at this. Additionally...Arminian theology has no modern roots. If you were to examine the roots of Arminian and Calvinist theology, you will find that Calvinism's roots are Gnostic and none of the ideas or concepts of Calvinism can be found in the Early Church prior to St. Augustine ( a former pseudo Gnostic) while Arminian theology's concepts and ideas can be found in the Earliest of the Church Fathers. (Ante-Nicene) I can back up what I say about all this.
LEON: Sorry Walter, but the WHOLE Bible has to be taken into account, in context. If there is even one verse that conflicts with your view, you are wrong. I gave you many verses that directly conflict with Armenianism.
WALTER: The bible does not conflict at all with Arminian theology. It may conflict with Calvinisms perverted view of scriptures but Calvinism is the not the standard by which we go by. I have already demonstrated with properly exegeted scriptures that my position is biblical.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 12:15 PM
i found this on a blog... i think its very well said... and in response to you walter when you said that calvinism is not supported in the bible.... how do you argue this away?
"well what about philippians 1:6?? this is why i'm confused... it says "being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus"
first of all, just so im not misunderstood, i dont believe either, that a true christian can be a christian and live a sinful lifestyle. But i also dont see how God can begin a work of salvation of faith in someone and not be able to finish it. We are adopted as children of God and we dont become unadopted one we're in the family, born of the Spirit. we are SEALED!!! Eph. 1:13,14 "having believed you were marked with Him, with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" (i wont type up the whole passage now... see it for yourself if you'd like).
(my own note)- a seal is not to be broken... once its sealed, you can not break it. it is safe. it is secured...
when God saves a person, He makes him or her into a NEW creation. the old is gone!. period. how can a person be given a new nature, the nature of Christ and become a Child of God, and if he does go astray (which can happen) that God would not DISCIPLINE him to bring him back? a TRUE CHILD OF GOD, WILL bE DISCIPLINED and THE HOLY SPIRIT IN HIM WILL CONVICT HIM OF HIS SIN AND LEAD Him back to repentance!!! that is the evidence that he is saved! if a so-call-believer starts to live a life of continual sin and does not feel the heaviness of guilt and discipline from God as to drive him back to repentance, then the Spirit of God was not in him in the first place.
i too agree that the passage in Hewbrews 6 speaks of someone who has not been saved in the first place. How could Peter deny the Christ 3 times and still be brought back to repentance? peter and judas both followed Christ and have had fellowship with Him, dine with Him, walked with Him, seen his miracles, etc... and one repented and one didnt. it is up to the person to repent but the Holy Spirit WILL CONVICT a child of God if that person has grieve Him. for as long as they are alive on this planet, everday is God;'s "another chance" to repent. (that is not to say that its ok to sin deliberately only because your God will forgive you... Romans 6, 7, 8 talks about that.)
a person at salvation is made new, renewed, reborn of the Spirit of God, MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST, resurrected from death... isnt that what salvation is? once we are resuurected with Christ, i dont see how we can be made dead again. we as christians are dead to sin! alive in righteousness. a true believer will desire to to live a life of righteousness. and if he or she will fall into sin (not dive into sin) he or she can be forgiven if he or she repents. if a "christian" is living a life style of sin, it is because he or she is a hypocrite a.k.a a FALSE CONVERT or NOT THE REAL DEAL or a FAKE. a true child of God will not be able to get away with such a lifestyle. if hes not repenting, he hasnt repented in the first place. Jesus said "you will know them by their fruit". His true followers will reap fruit of righteousness! if they have "worldly fruit" it's because they are of the world and not of God! (1 john also talks a lot about the evidence of true salvation)
i'll close with the part of the Romans passage i mentioned earlier, which i think everyone should read in it entirety:
"NOW IF WE DIED WITH CHRIST WE BELIEVE THAT WE WILL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM. FOR WE KNOW THAT SINCE CHRIST WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD HE CANNOT DIE AGAIN; DEATH NO LONGER HAS MASTERY OVER HIM. THE DEATH HE DIED HE DIED TO SIN ONCE AND FOR ALL; BUT THE LIFE HE LIVES, HE LIVES TO GOD." chapter 6, v.8-10. (so if we are in Christ, and have been made alive in Christ, and Christ cannot die again, how can we?)
if a person uses the excuse of "once saved always saved" in order to live a sinful lifestyle, be sure that person is not saved! the AUTHOR of your salvation is also the FINISHER of your salvation. the ALPHA of your faith is also the OMEGA of your faith."
he writes some more though
"I was wondering about the passage in hebrews, and it says, "it is impossible for those who have been ENLIGHTENED..." it does not say, it is impossible for those who have been born again, redeemed by the blood of the lamb, regenerated believers born of the Holy Spirit of God... to have fallen away and then not be able to ever again repent. i believe there is a difference between someone who is enlightened and someone who is born again to life in Christ. there are millions of enlightened people sitting in the pews of american church buildings today, who KNOW THE TRUTH, who read the scriptures, pray, see God at work in the lives of others, etc.., and still REFUSE to repent! there are plenty of those who have heard the Gospel millions of times but have hardened their hearts against it, and they go to church and some of them dare to call themselves christians, ut they have no fruit whatsoever, no evidence of salvation at all! THEY will not be saved UNLESS they repent, but im not going to assume that "enlightened' also equates SAVED! i dont believe its the same thing. THEY "cannot be brought back to repentance" because they have already believed a flase gospel telling them that they are saved simply because of a confession/ sinners praye/ declaration they have made {[even if it was sincere--there are people who put more trust and faith in the sincerity of the prayer they prayed than in Christ himself for salvation] and they are innoculated against the TRUE GOSPEL, and if you tried to witness to someone who is a false convert lately, it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to show them that they need to repent or that they have not truly converted. THATS WHY they can't be "brought back" because they love their iniquity/trangression/sin, and have never truly been saved and DONT WANT TO REPENT, not because God will not give them another chance."
and another one... take a break if you must ;)
someone who is spiritually born again by the supernatural power of God, it also KEPT alive by the supernatural power of God. a Christian, who is a truly saved Christian will not deliberately sin or live sinfully continuously because, before he was dead in his sins, but now he HATES his sins, and hates the fact that he has grieved God so much with his sins. A Christian will sin "unwillingly, but will not willingly live a sinful lifestyle. By definition, that is not a Christian. By definition, to a Christian, sin is despicable, hateful, ugly, and would do ANYTHING to avoid it, as far as it depends on him, but even in that instance he is dependent on the power of God to help him overcome his temptations and struggles. But dont tell me that its possible for a person to have been saved, converted, regenerated supernatually by God, knows the scripture, has the fear of God in him, lives a righteous, godly, christ-centered lifestyle for a while and then happens to walk onto a party, meets "mr. beer" becomes and alcoholic, a fornicator, a "god-hater by his god-lless lifestyle- without being convicted by the Holy Spirit and without feeling guilty, and now he is never ever able to repent and has lost his "previous salvation". This is not going to happen because the fear of God in that soundly saved person WILL DRIVE HIM to repentance and remorse. see deuteronomy 28 58-68, Isaiah 54:7-10; 55:6!!! Yes, its ture, we must live out our salvation, and the bible is clear that faith without works is dead. but if you defince salvation correctly (as well as the evidence for it) one cannot lose it! i dont see how someone who is dead in his sins has been made alive in Christ supernaturally, spiritually, and then dive again in his previously sinful liestyle, as if -the same way the power of the god who holds the universe and has brought this dead man to life- this same power is now not able to keep him alive and saved once and for all. We are saved by the power of God and we are kept saved by the power of God. I seriously have trouble grasping this concept of people losing their salvation"
and some more but its the last.
"There are so many people who believe the bible with their mind, and go though the motions of christianity (such as going to church, sharing the gospel, getting baptized, tithing, reading the bible, praying, casting our demons, healing the sick, IN THE NAME OF JESUS, doing charity work, etc. but they have never had a change of heart! Thats the issue!how is it possible for a person to collide with the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE WHO comes and lives inside of our mortal bodies at salvation, and then this same person walks away from God and deliberatly rebels against Him like nothing happened. You CANNOT come into contact with JESUS CHRIST and still remain the same. I dont see how thats possible. Any person who lives in rebellion against God has NEVER known God truly. (hence Mathew 7:21-23.) And to know God truly is solely, entirely, completely, only and the very work of God himself in us. it is not something we do on our own, as well as getting saved is not something we do of our own, as much as "remaining saved" is the work of God alone in us, and through us, it is his grace. none of us are "still saved" because of anything we have done or have not done. God is more than able to keep us saved once we're saved truly. we dont choose him, he chooses us. God does not UNDO our adoption as His children, he doesnt write our names in his book of life and then erase it and he doesnt save us and the gets us unsaved. i dont see it in scripture at all!!
again this is not my writing, but i copied from a blog.
instead of doing the same thing i see all arminians do, which is just use the verses to support their belief and ignore those that dont, try explaining those (calvinist) verses in an Arminian way?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 06:36 PM
Walter,
Let me start by saying you are right, I should have known better than you being angry. I do know you better than that, and I apologize.
Now, I can prove anything I want, by pulling a few verses here and there. But discussions of this kind are only as useful as the person doing the study is unbiased. I can do exactly as you did and pull a bunch of scriptures, break them down, and present them as truth. The truth is, that formula is never accurate.
The truth is that you will never be able to PROVE Armenianism because there are too many scriptures that argue directly against it. I have given you a few, that you refuse to acknowledge. It is the same with Calvinism, it will never be proven because there are scriptures that disagree with it. Both, by themselves, are false teachings. Why? Because both sides are trying to explain God so we can understand Him.
Yes, your study seemed accurate, except for the fact that you set out to prove a point, instead of just studying, which is a mistake. Another is, you discounted the scriptures that argued against your point of view. For a true study, these all have to be taken into account. But they can't be, because too many of them are so plain and simple. Same with the other side. There are literally hundreds of scriptures that seem to support either side you pick. That just says to me, that both sides are wrong.
In Romans 9, Paul gives many of the principles upon which Calvinism was founded. So I would think which goes back the farthest is of no importance. The Pharisees went back farther than both, and Jesus was not impressed with them. So the age of the theory means less than nothing. People were already making mistakes with the Gospel even as the churches were being founded.
I have read the Bible without any preconceived ideas. You will not convince me because I know what the Bible says. Some things can not be explained away by either side, and no matter how you look at it, that makes both of them false.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 19 Mar, 2009 09:17 PM
Jeff and Leon,
I will answer your questions and address all the scriptures that you "think" refutes me and supports your positions. I did not address them earlier because we were dealing with the ones I presented,...at least that is the way it's suppose to be done.
Leon,...there are absolutely no scriptures that support Calvinism. I will soon demonstrate this, providing you have an open mind and I believe you do.
Regarding Church History....I believe you are confusing or lumping the Early Church Fathers of the first 300 years with those who came later. Have you actually read the ECFs for yourself or are you just parroting what you have heard or read from others' commentaries? I have found most often that those who knock the Ante-Nicene Fathers do so because for one they have not read them and because their writings and prolific quotes of scripture refute specific beliefs like Calvinism.
I do not believe for a second that John the Apostle was so incompetent that he could not properly disciple his own disciples like Polycarp and Ignatius. Polycarp was appointed as the Pastor of the church of Smyrna when John wrote Revelation and he also became the Bishop of Lyons. Do you think John would have allowed his disciple Polycarp to be the Pastor of one of the churches if he taught false teachings? Not on your life. None of his writings are unbiblical as neither are Ignatius and several others. Were they perfect? no. Are their writings inspired? No. But they certainly give us an inside look as to what was handed down to the very first disciples of the Apostles and their disciples as well.
Ignatius (AD30-107) Disciple of John the Apostle.
"Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God�s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men � the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, BUT BY HIS OWN CHOICE. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us." (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)
I will address your posts later but I have to work tomorrow and need some well deserved sleep. I will be back by Saturday night....unless Kayaking over 16 miles wears me out. LOL
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 20 Mar, 2009 07:26 PM
You said, I will answer your questions and address all the scriptures that you "think" refutes me and supports your positions. I did not address them earlier because we were dealing with the ones I presented,...at least that is the way it's suppose to be done.
I don't think you have the time to refute all the scriptures that argue election, there are too many. But if you think you really can, I will start preparing a list. I will try to keep it fairly short, but there are hundreds of them. Start with this one in John.
10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
10:28
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
10:29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 21 Mar, 2009 11:45 AM
For phrases like 'once saved always saved', is it stated directly with those words in God's word? Expository study should show full spectrum. Since there seem to be both sides with various scripture stated in this thread. It likely shows that 'ones who are sealed 'are known by God' and do not lose salvation because the heart is right; no false double face. Though, the sad fact is, faith can fall away just as explained by the ones Walter refers to, and sower of the seed. Who first thought that ones who fall away, were not grafted in in the first place? Does the Bible say 'that'? Each time the 'both sides take issue' which seem opposite, it cannot be, it must be expositorily explained. The tares grow along with the rooted, then when under pressures, wither. They 'can be grafted back in with true repentence. The parable sower of seeds does clearly explain tares and rooted. Marriage is similar. They say they believe God, have various troubles, cannot take lifes' issues and divorce. It is troublesome to see these things happening. God's Grace and Mercy are here; I know for myself. Things are going the way they are. Please keep reading God's plans, intents, and ways. It reveals that all things are coming together for good for His glory, for those who love Him. Expository for me opens wide, the things that 'we' should have been doing for life on earth and His peace and contentment. Again, why is there so many troubled, unstable souls, relentlessly struggling with seemingly no established resolves in life?
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 21 Mar, 2009 12:01 PM
Susan,
I agree with you and your explanation. I believe there are many who think they are saved who are not. That is the reason Paul placed such importance on self examination.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 21 Mar, 2009 12:55 PM
Hmm, running out of time today so my input is short..
The God I know can not do two things, deceive or change.
He can do or allow anything else, including removing a name from the book of life. Jesus did warn about being hot or cold, but not lukewarm as if one is sitting on a fence trying to decide.
Take 2 people who accept Jesus into their heart;
Saint #1 lives and grows daily with the Lord until he passes on, staying faithful when Jesus said in the latter days many will fall away.
Saint #2 struggles and slips away over time, more than likely because his faith was not the countenance of a mustard seed. He turns to pron, forgets all he read about scripture and decides to be atheist, eventually leading a homosexual lifestyle and creating vicious traps to lure believers away from Jesus anyway he can.
Yes, when you accept Jesus into your heart your title changes much like your name changes when you get to Heaven. In scripture, any time status changed with a person and a few other things, their name changed.. you became a new being in Christ, done away with the old. That makes you a saint of love, a disciple of Christ, and more wealthy than bill gates. By eternal heirarchy it also makes you a prince or princess being the daughter of a King.. The King of Kings - Jesus.
Don't let this fallen world tell you who you are, and do not allow it to fill your head with what it claims is right/true as being friends with the fallen world is enmity with God, and theory/fact affirms there is no truth at all out there nor a God because in logic there is something called a universal negative. Unless you apply Proverbs 4:23: Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life", and Ephesians 6:13-18 which accounts for the whole armor of God, and prayer...every waking moment likely you'll be lied to anywhere deceit can pass unhindered to steer you away from truth and the Lord. Truth does have a bodyguard of lies it seems.
Eternal Security / Once Saved Always Saved. Is it Biblical?
Posted : 22 Mar, 2009 02:46 PM
JiMK,
God can do anything He chooses, except lie. As for allowing deception, I give you an example below.
1 Kings 22:20
And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.
22:21
Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.'
22:22
The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.'
22:23
Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."
