Author	Thread: Whom does God save?
Admin	Whom does God save? Posted : 21 Dec, 2012 07:14 PM Whom does God save? The short answer = Whomever He pleases. - There are some who believe it was decided who would be saved, even before the foundation of the world and "all" individuals have no choice in the matter. Scripture clearly teaches the 'Church' has had a predetermined destination before the foundation of the world, �however I see no clear teaching that every individual is only chosen one and the same way before the foundation of the world - no exceptions. God is Sovereign; He chooses and saves whomever, however and whenever He pleases. While mans own righteousness can never save him, there are plenty examples in Scripture where the actions of a person has received�the attention of God.� A Truly Sovereign God is Not bound by the "Tulip Rulebook" He bound only by His own nature. Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 03:30 PM Sorry I don't buy that I interpret scripture to fit my doctrine...seeing as how I didn't believe this way before. I came to it through scripture. Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 05:07 PM I came to my beliefs through scripture as well, but it's been said quite a few times that I put my own interpretation and twist on the scriptures. :peace::peace: Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 05:56 PM Yes to some extent we all put our own twist and interpretation on scripture, however I have a hard time buying that people come to "TULIP" independently apart from any influence from reformed doctrine. Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 05:58 PM Yes because when verses are brought up, you always force them to say the arminian point of view. For instance, when scripture tells people to believe, you say, "See, scriptures says man can believe". Instead of seeing that a command does not require the ability to carry out the command. What you do there is add to those verses something that they do not teach. That's why I make those claims. Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 06:35 PM Yes because when verses are brought up, you always force them to say the arminian point of view. __________ If that were true I would be Arminian wouldn't I? I am not. Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 06:52 PM [ For instance, when scripture tells people to believe, you say, "See, scriptures says man can believe". Instead of seeing that a command does not require the ability to carry out the command. What you do there is add to those verses something that they do not teach. That's why I make those claims.] ___________ Wow! and I am adding to those verses? LOL! If Scripture calls us to 'believe' then we should, or at least try. If we can't then we need to ask for God's help so that we may believe. That is my big interpretation. Woo woo! It is not up to me to say who can 'believe' and who can't and why. Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 22 Dec, 2012 09:33 PM "Yes to some extent we all put our own twist and interpretation on scripture, however I have a hard time buying that people come to "TULIP" independently apart from any influence from reformed doctrine." What movtivation would one have to come to TULIP? "If that were true I would be Arminian wouldn't I? " I was responding to Mark "If Scripture calls us to 'believe' then we should, or at least try. If we can't then we need to ask for God's help so that we may believe." Again I was responding to Mark. However men can't try and the reason they can't is because they won't. Men act according to their nature. Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 23 Dec, 2012 05:18 AM 44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. God intiates here..... 11For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. (((13And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14I will be found by you, says the Lord,))) and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive. Our response to God..... Whats the difficulty? It is so simple a child can relate to it. My room mate came to me the other day desireing faith. What if I told him if he is Gods chosen he would be chosen and if he is not he will not? What kind of love is that? Instead I told him how God loves him and if he seeks God he will find God. I also encouraged him to read his bible and seek God there. So the question is ....does he really want God or just to be relieved of his momentary pain? only time will tell. Even if God only chooses us and we not Him how do we live with those who know not God? How do we encourage others to seek God? What is the point of being right if we are focusing on being right and not really serving those around us? Are we that fearful thinking that if we encourage people to seek God they might find a false god? Whats the issue? Can we really know even from ones "fruit" they are truly saved? Isnt their only one person we can be certain of? Our selves? Whats the point trying to convince someone to think and believe as we do? Do we trust the Spirit of God? Do we trust the work of God? Do we trust the plan of God? Do we trust God? Post Reply
View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 23 Dec, 2012 06:10 AM And this makes my point that it's often the arminian view that claims it's not fair or loving.... Post Reply
DontHitThatMark View Profile History	Whom does God save? Posted : 23 Dec, 2012 08:47 AM Ok, well that is a good example then. The bible calls men to believe, commands men to believe, and there are examples of men believing. I choose to interpret it how it reads, as with "the whole world"/"all men everywhere", because there is nothing that tips the scales in the other direction. You just "say" that it doesn't mean what it says it does. I agree that men would not seek God apart from any action on God's part, that is in the bible. But I do not agree that the bible says men cannot believe. I can't find an example anywhere of men being regenerated before they believe. Predestined, perhaps, but not regenerated. If you can show me a verse that shows where God says men cannot believe(and not the ones that say they do not seek him, that is a different subject), I would greatly appreciate it. And while you're at it, one that is an example of a man being regenerated before he believes. Ephesians 1:13 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. :peace:No holy spirit until hearing and believing the word. Yes, perhaps God only allows some to hear, but that is not your doctrine of regeneration before faith, and this verse tells us where faith and hearing come from: Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" John 20:31 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. :peace:"By believing we have life", we're dead, we believe, and we're given life. The life doesn't come first. Ephesians 2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: :peace:Dead in sin, saved by grace through faith. And I know you would say that faith is the gift, but that doesn't really fit in context, and there is many more place that refers to salvation as the gift, but either way, that's still not regeneration before faith. It contrasts faith and works as the mechanism, and also, every man has a measure of faith(So then faith cometh by hearing, and God spreads the word everywhere). Galations 3:6 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. :peace:There is an example of faith, and then an example of someone who did have faith. Acts 17 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. :bouncy:God made everything and all men. Made men to seek after him, and commands all men to repent. I'm sure you'll say that none seek after God and I agree, and also that none come to the son except the Father draws them, and I agree there as well, but I would ask "how" he draws us. That is why God is active in our world, and why his son had to die, to draw us. God's love, and especially his love displayed in the sacrifice of his son, is what draws men to himself. John 6 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Hosea 11 "I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them." Jeremiah 31 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. John 12:32 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Titus 3 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; :bouncy:Here's more with belief before life. John 3:15-16 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:36 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 1:12 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: :bouncy:Faith pleases and glorifies God. Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Romans 4:20-21 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; :bouncy:God spreads the word everywhere, hearing comes by the word, faith by hearing, and salvation by grace through faith. The conclusion I come to through scripture? Faith is possible and commanded by God through a knowledge of the truth before we are given life through God's grace. :peace::peace: Post Reply

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