Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. James 4:8
WHAT IS PREDESTINATION?
Predestination is doctrine which teaches that God predetermined who would go to heaven and who would spend eternity in hell. Furthermore, it
teaches that each person has absolutely no choice in accepting or rejecting salvation through Christ. Every move you make and everything that
happens to you, good or bad, was predetermined by God. If you reject Christ it is because you never had a chance or option to believe.
Those who espouse predestination claim that if we have the free will to accept God�s salvation then we have earned our way into heaven. Therefore we�re not saved by grace but by our own merit-- we caused our own salvation, not God.
Belief in predestination is generally referred to as Calvinism or Reformed Theology.
� John Calvin (1509-1564):
o God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race,
without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.
o We proved above that something not subject to free choice is nevertheless voluntarily done.(1)
o Some are predestined to salvation, others to damnation (2)
o God �saves whom he wills of his mere good pleasure� (3)
o Regarding the lost: �it was his good pleasure to doom to destruction.� (4)
o Since the disposition of all things is in the hands of God and he can give life or death at his pleasure, he dispenses and
ordains by his judgment that some, from their mother�s womb, are destined irrevocably to eternal death in order to glorify
his name in their perdition.(5)
o All are not created on equal terms, but some are predestined to eternal life, others to eternal damnation� (6)
� Huldrych Zwingli (1484�1531) was the leader of the Protestant Reformation in Switzerland, and founder of the Swiss Reformed
Churches. Zwingli viewed God as the cause of all human sin. A Reformed Theology website said, �Zwingli�s understanding of
predestination as indistinguishable from providence, logically inclines him to the conclusion that God is the cause of human sin.� (7)
� Charles H. Spurgeon (1834-1892): I believe that nothing happens apart from divine determination and decree. We shall never be able to escape from the doctrine of divine predestination - the doctrine that God has foreordained certain people unto eternal life. (8)
� Loraine Boettner (1901-1990): Even the fall of Adam, and through him the fall of the race, was not by chance or accident, but was so ordained in the secret counsels of God. (44)
� Edwin Palmer: �All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history�whether inorganic matter, vegetation,
animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones-- come to pass because God ordained them, Even sin- the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history.� (9 )
� R.C. Sproul, Jr.: ��God desired for man to fall into sin�God created sin.� (10)
WHAT IS FREE WILL?
Free will teaches that when presented with the facts of God�s plan for salvation that every individual person has a choice to make, to either accept or reject God�s gift of salvation. God desires that every person accept His gift. What was predestined was God�s plan for salvation through Jesus
for those who accept it. Therefore if you accept that Jesus died for your sins and you have made Him Lord of your life then you are a part of the predetermined plan.
� Jesus Christ: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (11)
� Apostle Peter: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (12)
� Apostle Paul: For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. (13)
� Apostle Paul: This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved. (14)
Calvinists claim that their position is proven by early church leaders and then quote Augustine who lived from 354 to 430 AD. What do even earlier church leaders say about free will? Let�s look at a few. Some of these men were discipled directly by one or two of the original twelve apostles or by men the original disciples taught and mentored.
Ignatius of Antioch- Died between 98 and 110 AD. Ignatius was likely a disciple of both Apostles Peter and John and was martyred (Ignatius was condemned to fight wild beasts in the Coliseum) in Rome. Seven of his letters have survived to this day; he is generally considered to be one of the Apostolic Fathers (the earliest authoritative group of the Church Fathers):
� If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.(15)
Polycarp- c. 69 AD-c. 155 AD. Martyred by being burned at the stake in his 87th year. Polycarp had been a disciple of John (there is debate as whether this John was the son of Zebedee, or John the Presbyter (Lake 1912)).(16) I list Polycarp here not for any particular quote but because he
was a teacher of Irenaeus, whom I do quote:
� But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom... (17)
Irenaeus- (ca. 130-202) - Irenaeus, who was also a martyr, was taught by Polycarp and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. About 180 AD Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies Book IV, against ideas that would later become aspects of Calvinist and Reformed Theology in its denial of the free will as you can see in the following summaries:
� Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad. (18)
� Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power, by His Own Will and Choice, to Perform God�s Commandments, by Doing Which He Avoids the Evils Prepared for the Rebellious. (19)
Justin Martyr- c. 100/114AD � c. 162/168 AD. He was another early Christian apologist (defender) of the faith and was martyred by beheading. His works represent the earliest surviving Christian apologies of notable size:
� Man acts by his own free will and not by fate. (20)
� We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man�s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable
to do anything else than what he was made for. (21)
� But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless
we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. (22)
Clement of Alexandria (190 AD)
� A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace. (23)
� Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary. (24)
Archelaus (250-300 AD)
� All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases. (25)
Methodius (260-315 AD)
� Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils (26)
I could have quoted more early church leaders but the point is made. Lest you think I merely cherry picked favorable quotes to make my point consider what Calvinist Loraine Boettner has to say about the early church leaders. Boettner, author of The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination acknowledges that the early church fathers did not ascribe to the doctrine of predestination:
�It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century....They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination... They taught a kind of synergism in which there was a co-operation between grace and free
will...� (27)
Regarding what we now call the doctrine of predestination Boettner went on to say, �This cardinal truth of Christianity was first clearly seen by Augustine...� Augustine lived from 354 � 430 A.D., well after the church fathers quoted above.
Boettner wasn�t alone in his conclusion that prior to Augustine there really weren�t any who espoused a doctrine of predestination of a certain elect few. In 1882 James Morrison wrote in The Extent of Atonement about an English Bishop, John Davenant (1572-1641), who was present at the
Synod of Dort in 1618. Bishop Davenant wrote:
It may be truly said before Augustine and Pelagius, there was no question concerning the death of Christ, whether it was to be extended to all mankind, or to be confined only to the elect. For the Fathers�not a word (that I know of) occurs among them of the exclusion of any persons by the decree of God. They agree that it is actually beneficial to those only who believe, yet everywhere confess that Christ died in behalf of all mankind�
Augustine died in AD 429, and up to his time, at least, there is not the slightest evidence that any Christian ever dreamed of a propitiation for the elect alone. Even after him, the doctrine of limited propitiation was but slowly propagated, and for long but partially received.
In other words, according to Reformed Theology, the early church fathers, men who studied under the original Apostles and Disciples or their students, did not understand basic Christian doctrine. Apparently the world would have to wait nearly 400 years for this revelation! They are in effect saying that Christ�s work and the Scriptures were not understood by the early Christians. It required some special revelation of hidden truth to special people centuries later. Isn�t that Gnosticism?
What we see is that Calvinists would rather put their trust in doctrine developed centuries after Jesus, the Apostles and the early church fathers, by a man who did not study with those closest to the source. Biblical historians and scholars will tell you the closer one gets to the original source, the
more likely one is to get accurate doctrine from those who were there. The reverse is true, the farther away you get from those who were there, the more likely that errors are to develop in doctrine.
There is about a 400 year jump between the original Apostles and their students until Augustine revealed �the truth,� then you had another 1,100 years until men like John Calvin came along to develop and enforce this doctrine.
Dave Hunt sums it up nicely:
"The huge difference between the biblical God and the Calvinist God is clear. The biblical God punishes men for rejecting the salvation He provided for everyone, which all could have accepted by their free will-and punishes them for their sins, which are contrary to His will, none
of which they had to commit but chose to do so.
But the Calvinist God condemns to hell those whom He could save if He so desired but for whom He sovereignly chose not even to have Christ die and from whom He deliberately withholds the salvation He pretends to offer them�and punishes them for not accepting. Yes, that's a huge difference."
The Berean Call, July 2007 Q & A
EARLY JEWISH THOUGHT
Jewish philosophy stresses that free will is a product of the intrinsic human soul and is closely linked with the concept of reward and punishment,
based on the Torah itself:
I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life Deuteronomy 30:19
It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely. (28)
The 12-volume Jewish Encyclopedia, which was originally published between 1901-1906 has this to say about Free Will and Predestination:
FREE WILL: The doctrine that volition is self-originating and unpredictable. That man is free to choose between certain courses of conduct was regarded by rabbinical Judaism as a fundamental principle of the Jewish religion. Although generally following the ethical system of the Stoics, Philo, influenced by Judaism, professed the doctrine of free will ("Quod Deus Sit Immutabilis," ed. Mangey, p. 279), and Josephus states that the Pharisees maintained it against both the Sadducees, who attributed everything to chance, and the Essenes, who ascribed all to predestination and divine providence ("Ant." xiii. 5, � 9; xviii. 1, � 5). "All is in the
hands of God except the fear of God" is an undisputed maxim of the Talmud (Ber. 33b; Niddah 16b). Source: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=363&letter=F&search=free will
PREDESTINATION: The belief that the destiny of man is determined beforehand by God. "Predestination" in this sense is not to be confounded with the term "preordination," applied to the moral agents as predetermining either election to eternal life or reprobation. This latter view of predestination, held by Christian and Mohammedan theologians, is foreign to Judaism...Source:http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=503&letter=P&search=free will
Free will acknowledges that God is active in our lives and that He does intervene and cause certain things to happen as evidenced by the prophecies in the scriptures. Other things that happen to us are a result of choices we make. While yet other events happen because of sin that is in the world, we can�t control the events, we can control how we react to them. Free will teaches that because God is sovereign and active in our lives He can use any event for our benefit, even those events He does not directly cause to occur.
IS THERE A MIDDLE GROUND?
I�ve been told emphatically by a friend I�ll call Fred, who is a bi-vocational Reformed Theology pastor, �there is no middle ground.�
Loraine Boettner, author of The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination claims �there is no consistent middle ground between Calvinism and Atheism.�
DOES IT MATTER?
There are two reasons as I see it that it matters:
a) If a person's salvation is already determined there is no real point in being proactive in the faith or urgency in preaching the Gospel. If your neighbor is unsaved, Reformed Theology tells you that they will come to know Jesus or spend eternity in hell whether you tell them about God�s plan for salvation or not.
b) Calvinists believe that if you don�t believe in predestination it is because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal the truth of predestination to you. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of predestination to real believers so you must not be a real believer if you believe in free will.
Why do Calvinists even bother to debate the issue? After all, if Calvinists are correct then those believing in Calvinism and those believing in Free Will were predestined to have those beliefs, there is no basis for argument. Yet there seem to be more books and more web sites arguing the case for predestination than there are in favor of free will. Many Calvinist sites verge on the militant, dismissing any argument for free will out of hand. Many Calvinist websites I�ve come across call freewill dangerous to true faith. If, as Loraine Boettner claims, �there are no valid arguments for free will� then why devote so much time to arguing the case for predestination?
Again, does it matter? It shouldn�t be anything more than a difference in opinion. However, John Calvin had people executed who denied predestination and many prominent modern day Calvinists claim that Calvinism �is the Gospel,� the implication is if you reject Calvinism you also reject the Gospel, therefore you are not saved.
According to Calvinism the good news of the Gospel is not good news for everyone� The Reformed Theology Gospel is essentially this:
God only loves and saves those whom He chooses to love and save. Everyone else God specifically created to spend in hell, for eternal torment and damnation even though they never had the chance or option to accept God�s gift of salvation. This is �God�s good pleasure.� God demonstrates His Glory when he predestines certain people to destruction.
In case you think I�m exaggerating then read from John Calvin�s Institutes of Christian Religion:
� God �saves whom he wills of his mere good pleasure� (29)
� �Those, therefore, whom God passes by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children�� (30)
� Regarding the lost �it was his good pleasure to doom to destruction�� (31)
� �But if all whom the Lord predestined to death are naturally liable to sentence of death, of what injustice, pray, do they
complain�because by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to perpetual destruction� what will they be able to mutter against their defense?�(32)
� �Now since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God�He arranges� that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction�� (33)
� ��by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to eternal destruction� (34)
This is in contrast with the Gospel I know. The Gospel means the good news, which is that God created us to have a personal relationship with Him and cares about every individual person:
�For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.� John 3:16-17
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Romans 1:16
THE PROBLEM WITH PREDESTINATION
According to Reformed Theology when someone, lets call her Molly, accepted Christ it wasn�t really because of her own free will, but because God created her specifically to accept Christ, without a choice.
Now suppose Molly's grown son dies without accepting Christ. Reformed Theology tells us that God created Molly's son specifically to spend eternity separated from God, in hell. Therefore all the years of prayer, anguish and hope that Molly�s son would someday accept Christ was a
waste of time.
It�s one thing to have a loved one that rejects God because of his own choice, but it is another to believe that person never had a chance because God never permitted or allowed them a chance.
To follow predestination to its logical conclusion we should not feel any sense of grief or sadness when an unsaved friend or relative dies and spends eternity in hell. Rather we should rejoice because the person is going to hell, just as God intended.
IN THE BEGINNING� IT WAS VERY GOOD
We see in the first chapter of Genesis that God created everything and everything He created was good.
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Genesis 1:31 NIV
What did God create that was not good? Nothing!
We�re also told that �God created man in His image�. The Bible tells us God created man, male and female, and God blessed them (Genesis 1:28). Nowhere in the Genesis account does it tell us that God created anyone specifically for eternal damnation.
Sin, Rebellion and Evil
God did not create the world to destroy part of it. That is something we brought on ourselves.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17 NIV
Sin: Everything God created was good, so how did sin enter the world? Apostles Paul and John tell us that sin entered the world through Adam and that God did not create sin.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12 NIV
�But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him� the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God� 1 John 3:5-9 NASB
God did not cause Adam to disobey Him; otherwise man wouldn�t have been created in God�s image. The Bible tells us that God hates sin and that sin can�t enter heaven. Solomon wrote: "This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes." Ecclesiastes 7:29 NIV
Reformed Theology says �God created us therefore whatever He does is just, whether we like it or not.� Yes, that is true, however, I don�t accept their definition of just nor do I believe that God is that capricious or arbitrary. God sets the standards for us and the standards are knowable.
A just parent cannot force his child to eat a cupcake and then slap the tar out of him for eating it. It�s a different case when the parent says, �Don�t eat the cupcake�, then if the child thinks about it and says to himself, �Dad really didn�t mean he�d punish me if I did eat it� or �I don�t care what Dad says, I make my own decisions and I am eating the cupcake anyway.� Then the resulting punishment is just.
Having free will means bad things are going to happen as a result of living in a fallen world.
When a loved one gets sick, or dies in a traffic accident, or loses their job, or just gets a cold many tend to say �it�s God�s will.� It is certainly a convenient and uncomplicated explanation. If one means its God�s will because He didn�t prevent it this is different than saying God caused it to
happen.That God didn�t prevent it doesn�t mean He caused it to happen. Many calamities are a consequence of living in a sinful fallen world of our own making. That is a consequence of having free will. Otherwise one would have to conclude that God causes every rape, every murder, and
every starving child. The truth is because God can use any incident for His glory, He doesn�t have to cause it to use it. In the same way, regardless of what befalls us, God expects us to react a certain way:
...Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ... Philippians 1:27 NIV
Rebellion: Did God create Lucifer/Satan, specifically to rebel and take a third of the angels with him? Because God is sovereign, He could have prevented the possibility of the rebellion from ever happening. Again, that God didn�t prevent it doesn�t mean He caused it to happen. God allowed it because He allowed free will.
Evil: Did God create evil?
And the LORD God commanded the man, �You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.� Genesis 2:16-17 NIV
And the LORD God said, �The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Genesis 3:22 NIV
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; Psalm 5:4 NIV
The LORD loves righteousness and justice Psalm 33:5 NIV
I have been told by my Reformed Theology friends that since God is sovereign over all it is presumptuous for us to call anything evil. They tell me since we cannot know God�s mind and God causes all things as part of His sovereign plan, then nothing is really evil, there is no difference between good and evil. Yet God's sovereignty is not threatened by free will and He tells us we can distinguish between good and evil.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil Isaiah 5:20
Josh McDowell had the following to say about creation, evil, and God�s love for us:
The Scriptures make it plain that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now, but evil came as a result of the
selfishness of man. The Bible says that God is a God of love and He desired to create a person and eventually a race that would love Him. But genuine love cannot exist unless freely given -- through free choice God allows us to accept His love or to reject it.
This choice made the possibility of evil a reality. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they did not choose something God created, but, by their choice, they brought evil into the world. God is neither evil nor did He create evil. Man brought evil upon himself by selfishly choosing his own way apart from God�s way. (35)
GOD LOVES US
God created us out of love for a purpose. The purpose is God wants a relationship with us. A relationship cannot be one-sided where the interaction of one side is all controlled by the other side. Imagine creating a sock-puppet with button-eyes and carrying on both sides of a conversation with it. How satisfying is it for you as a creator to make up both sides of the dialog?
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. Deuteronomy 7:12 NIV
... the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. John 16:27 NIV
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1 John 4:8 NIV
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:10 NIV
God created man for fellowship, not to keep us in a fishbowl as a pet, in a cell as a prisoner, or preprogrammed to be obedient robots. If God did, there would be no relationship.
God, from the beginning, had a plan to redeem mankind and built into that plan were choices and consequences for man. God desires fellowship with all mankind, not just certain people. Yet God knows that not all people are going to reciprocate because of the freedoms He gave us.
References:
1. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, II,v.
2. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III, viii
3. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi,1.
4. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi,7.
5. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi,7.
6. John Calvin- Institutes of the Christian Religion, III:xxi, 5
I wasn't aware that was a boast. I believe God saves apart from any righteousness or work or sin that anyone has done. Again, faith is never a work in the bible, and no, I did not say "believing in free will saved me". Belief in free will is just a form of knowledge/doctrine that may be only in part and passes away, that's why we don't judge anyone on vain disputes or observance of feasts, etc. Believing Jesus is the son of God and died for sin is the only belief that scripture says saves. "Look and live". Anyway...here's a verse where apparently Paul is boasting as well. I don't think what I said is any different than from what he said. If you have ever said that "I'm saved", then you are boasting as well, but only in the Lord, and that is a biblical boasting. Even if we were as Enoch was and walked with the Lord, and had all the wisdom of Solomon, we still would not be able to save ourselves. Jesus still had to die to even make it possible and we could not make him die by the force of any will. Only God's will can do that, and thank God he did.
2 Tmothy 1
"Nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Faith is never a work in the bible because it gives God the credit. It does indeed take the will out of it(John 1:13)...Of course you will never see it as a work because the bible doesn't teach such. Nor, does it teach free will. In fact, over and over again it teaches that man will act in accordance with his own nature. You have never presented any argument showing any of this to not be true.
I agree that man would never seek God. That is why God is working in the world, why he sends prophets and teachers and the commandments. To bring a knowledge of sin, to convict everyone in sin, to show them their need for a savior, and then to provide that savior. It's basically the reverse of what happened in the garden. God made men with free will, with only a knowledge of what was good, but also that they could disobey. He placed the tree in the garden so that they could exercise their free will if they chose, because free will with no occasion to exercise it is not free. So at least in Genesis the bible does teach free will. Satan(the originator of sin) deceived them and convinced them that God was a liar and tempted them to sin against God. They fell and became aware of both good and evil.
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"
Notice that God never forcefully took away their will, just eternal life.
They became slaves to sin because they followed sin and it's attractions/lusts and eventually came to the point where they would only ever seek after their own desires. No good motive was found in them, even though they were created good by God. God has always been moving in the world to bring them back to a knowledge of both good and evil, to show that he is good, to die for his own enemies and their trespasses against himself, to draw them back by his love and sacrifice, and so that people would believe that he is truth and not a liar like Satan said he was. He does it himself, spreads the seed, sends preachers to teach the word, and he commands all men everywhere to repent and come to a knowledge of the truth, so that all men have the same chance, and that all who reject him will have no excuse to claim against God's work. They will die for the works of their hands, and there will be no hope or reason for an "appeal", which I believe they would have if God never enabled them to have a chance. They could claim that it was unfair, and that God is not just, and bring accusations against him.
So basically, where you believe God makes them change and then they believe, I believe God influences them back to a saving knowledge of himself, provides a savior to enable forgiveness, and regenerates them if they have faith in that salvation. So its all God, men just have faith, and like you said, faith is never a work.
And I do believe that there is predestination through foreknowledge, but I don't think that God ever needs to circumvent what he can regenerate by his love/sacrifice/wisdom. Jesus himself said, if he was lifted up(if all men would see him and who he was), he would draw all men to himself, and I think he meant ALL men.
I do know there are verses where it says that God is the one enabling men to see and hear the truth, but there are also an equal amount of verses where men separate themselves from God by their sin, blind/deafen themselves, and resist the holy spirit(how can a man resist or sin against the holy spirit if he doesn't have free will?).
Acts 7
"51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
Jesus also mentioned several times that He spoke in parables specifically so that they couldn't hear or understand, "lest they believe", implying that they could have heard and believed if it wasn't a parable. I think all that means that God is the one that brings the knowledge and the word, and he can withhold it where he chooses, but that men also can reject or not see it even if it is brought to them.
" 31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
"Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? "
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
Before the foundation of the world, God had prophesied/foretold of what would he would do to bring about the plan of salvation, and that literally meant that some were already "predestined to be lost", but not because God forced or removed their will in any literal way. God just planned to do HIS will, perhaps choosing the best outcome that would save the most while maintaining his own righteousness, and the timeline he planned to bring about salvation and eradication of sin determined who was saved and who was lost simply through the exercising of HIS will from the foundation of the world until the judgment. I don't see any need for him to "force" anything except that, but that isn't a removal of the free will he created men with, that is just him working HIS will. The bible also mentions that concept several times, where it says "this was done so the prophesy might be fulfilled" and that God can do whatever he wants, since he is original being with free will. He just chooses to be righteous all the time, with no shadow of turning. I've heard some people claim that if God was always about love and saving people(universalism), God would be committing idolatry, and they're right, but since He maintains his own righteous(he cannot sin), he stands immovable, but calls and enables us to come back to him through repentance and forgiveness, offered through love, but demanded by justice in both applications of the word. Hence, it is not idolatry, because not all respond or are saved, and God doesn't go running after them forever begging them to turn back.
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
Anyway, I think it's very small mechanic where we "disagree", but it affects it all, and therefore becomes extremely complicated. I hope at least some of that makes sense.
Yes Genesis teaches that Adam had the freedom to choose. When I speak of free will not being taught anywhere in scripture, I'm referring to it never teaching that after the fall man has a free will. Man always acts according to his own nature. Even in the Garden, Adam acted according to God's will. Our will is always limited by God's will. This should be fairly obvious. To say otherwise is to claim God is just some eye in the sky watching over us with no power to act in the world. So there is no question that man's will is limited. The only question is in what way is it limited. Scripture teaches it's limited by God's will, and by man's nature.
I can agree with that statement. God's will is supreme, and he will do his righteousness no matter what we do. Man's will is twisted by his fallen nature. I don't think that God will ever commit evil or tempt men to do so, so in a sense, he is "limited" by his righteousness, and that means he will always do the right/perfect/best thing.
I highly doubt that man has free will. The Bible teaches a man is a slave to what ever masters him. Even if mastered by nothing he is still a slave to himself, however if he is mastered by Christ, he is a slave to Christ and 'Free in Him'
I agree with you there. I believe that is why God brought the "law", to slay us in our sin. When God brings us to a knowledge of the truth, we're forced to acknowledge our sinfulness and inability to save ourselves. After that, when we're slain by the law and dead to sin, God regenerates us with new life in Christ.
Romans 7
9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
I am glad to see you have finally arrived at truth. There is no good in man without God changing him. Salvation is all of God and nothing to be added by man. That is what GUD and i have been saying all along.
Theology does not save you, Jesus does. I love theology, but I love Jesus more. Jesus when approaching men and woman, did not discuss theology, but Himself and their need. When He did engage in theological discussion, it was with the Pharisees, and that never went well. With that said, I really love theology and discussing theology.
