I am interested to hear some views on this topic. Please do not argue but I would like to hear some different perspectives on this. Treat eachother with respect.... Remember we are all Christians and we are to love one another.:waving:
These verses to me mean that our salvation has nothing to do with what we did but all about what God did for us, his chosen, and if we are truely saved we will not lose our salvation because it was God who started it within us. This I truely believe but it is interesting to hear what others believe.
One thing that my dad and I talked about, and I am not really sure how I feel about this, is that Jesus did not die for everyone but for only his elect or chosen. While I know there are many scriptures that talk about the elect and his chosen what really confuses me is some of the other verses like John 3:16. There it says, and I am sure you know, For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. My question is doesn't the world mean the whole world and doesn't whosoever mean whoever? Iknow this is kind of off the original subject but these are things that I am asking God to show me. I would like to hear what you think.
By the way thank you all for not arguing but discussing these topics. This was not to start arguments but to discuss these topics!!
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 17
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
The world in John 3:16 is speaking of the fallen world. It is saying that God loved the fallen world by giving His son for everyone who would believe. Whosoever is correct, but a little misleading. It literally means every believing one. So yes, whosoever believes will be saved, but John 3:16 say nothing about who the "whosoever" will be...except that they they believe.
I am going to more or less echo what GraceUndeserved just said but add a bit more.
If Christ died for everyone then everyone would be saved as a result, period. Otherwise, the implication is that Christ's death fails to accomplish it's purpose. This cannot be the case. We must proceed from this foundation in trying to understand these verses.
Jesus here was speaking to Nicodemus, a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews. This is established earlier in the chapter. With that in mind vs 16 must bear this reflection. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that salvation would be extended to the Gentiles - the "world" beyond the Jews.
"Whosoever believeth" is also key to understanding this passage rightly. Can anyone and everyone believe? or is belief subject to the sovereign grace of God? In other words, does God enable everyone to believe? The answer is no. This is established in many other passages. Here are just a few:
Eph 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Thanks, INHIMALONEISTAND! So what is it you did with what those scriptures speak of falling away, and/or disownment (in the Matthew, 2 Timothy, and Hebrews ones, say)? Did you somehow take them into account, discard them, ignore them, something else?
I mean this out of a desire to see you considering scripture well, not out of malicious intent. My own ideas about this are getting tweaked as I look through the bible, and as we go along.
I believe that everyone who believes in him and are IN him, receives eternal life. But:
(Revelation 2:1-29)
�To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: �The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. ��I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. BUT I have this against you, that you have ABANDONED the love you HAD at first. REMEMBER therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. IF NOT, I will come to you and REMOVE YOUR lampstand from its PLACE, unless you repent. ...
(John 8:10-11)
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, �Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?� 11 She said, �No one, [a] Lord.� And Jesus said, � I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on SIN NO MORE.�
(Titus 3:5)
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of REGENERATION and RENEWAL of the Holy Spirit,
"It is a constant battle."
(Titus 3:5)
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
(Hebrews 10:26)
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,....
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of rightousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yoursleves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from he heart that form of doctirne(teaching) which was delivered you. 18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
From the scriptures/bible, we see that God requires blood to atone for man's sin. Under the Old Testament, the blood of animals was shed to atone for man's sins. But due to man's great sins, there's no more worthy offerings/sacrifices for the atonement of man's sin....not even any animals blood. There's no more sacrifice that can make the people come near again to God. Men sinned & all fall short of the glory of God. But because of God's great love to us, he gave us His only Son; Lord Jesus Christ to save us all (Praises & thanks to our great & loving God). Because the only worthy offering/sacrifice for the atonement of man's great sin is the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, Lord Jesus Christ gave up His life, shed His own blood for all the people to be save.
Our Lord Jesus Christ sanctify all the people (ALL MEN without exemption) through His own blood. By His Blood we are all saved. Thus, SALVATION IS BEING GIVEN TO ALL MEN/PEOPLE.
Hebrew 10:1-14 "....10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.......14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."
Romans 5:8-11 ".....Christ died for us. 9 By His blood we are now put right with God...."
But ARE WE ALWAYS SAVED?
In order for men/us to be always saved, WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR SALVATION (the salvation that God gave us) until the end of our lives here on earth.
WHY DO WE STILL NEED TO PROTECT OUR SALVATION?
Always bear in mind that satan/evil will do everything in his power TO SNATCH THAT SALVATION AWAY FROM US, bec. satan/evil wants all the people to not be saved & be his. Don't think that the evil will just let you be saved!
HOW THEN CAN WE PROTECT AND MAINTAIN OUR SALVATION?
All we have to do is, HUMBLY SUBMIT OURSELVES TO THE LORD OUR GOD, FOLLOW His commandments, the rules/laws of God/Lord Jesus Christ which is all written in the bible. And LET YOUR HOLY SPIRIT GUIDE & PROTECT YOU ALWAYS.
Hebrew 10:26-27 "For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us. Instead, all that is left is to wait in fear for the coming Judgment and the fierce fire which will destroy those who oppose God!"
Let us all then work hard to protect our salvation that God gave us. Let us help each other for us to be able to be with the Lord; in His paradise in heaven after our lives here on earth.
I totally agree that we have to protect our salvation. What about King Hezekiah in the book of 2nd Kings that was granted 15 more years of life, and what about Satan that made it all the way to Heaven, and then got booted out? Hmmm...
