Believe it or not there is some confusion among Christians as to what the term "apostle" means or who can be an apostle. Let's start with the definition.
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ("apostle"), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, HE THAT IS SENT.
The meaning is "one who is sent" with the authority of the sender. It is NOT an office like a Bishop, Pastor or Elder. If being an "apostle" was an office or leadership position within a church then there would be qualifications listed like there is for an "Elder" or "Bishop", or Deacon. But there is not. There has been some very bad teachings concerning this little word.
There were all together 13 Apostles OF Christ, then finally down to 12. Judas as we know betrayed Christ and killed himself. So who was the replacement for Judas? Who later became an Apostle "OF" Christ? This means that it is Christ who must appoint that person directly and personally in order to be HIS Apostle.
All an "apostle" is ...is someone "who is sent" to do something with the authority "OF" the person who personally sent them.
No one today can be an Apostle "OF" Jesus Christ. We can be an apostle but not "OF" Jesus Christ. We are Disciples of Christ but not Apostles "OF" Christ. If your Pastor"s name is Joe and let's say he sent you to deliver a message to another church or to buy something at Home Depot, then you have become your Pastor's "apostle" until you have completed your mission. You are an apostle "OF" Joe. It is just that simple.
There has been much confusion about this word "apostle" mainly among Charismatics, Word of Faith Movement, etc. and even by the Roman Catholic Church who twist the meaning of the word to support what is called "Apostolic Succession". This means that an Apostle of Christ had the power to make someone an Apostle "OF" Jesus Christ and that power could be continued making Apostles of Christ. That is simply a bad teaching and totally unbiblical. Only Jesus Christ has the power to make Himself more Apostles and that He never did and won't do as He only picked 13, minus Judas who was replaced by Paul making only 12. Here is more proof that there can be no more Apostles OF Christ.
Rev 21:14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. NKJV
How many Apostles "OF" the Lamb? TWELVE [12]...only 12.
Sorry guys, I am out on these discussions. The friendly, loving tone is gone, and it is unfruitful at this point. No one is willing to see the other side, and that is a recipe for disaster. I have been caught up in enough of these to see the writing on the wall. God bless.
I have often found that when someone attacks people personally like what you are doing to Leon and myself and challenges their spirituality it comes from a spirit of pride. Leon sees it and so do I. It is uncalled for and smacks of arrogance. It is typical of someone who is unable to properly answer questions in a debate when confronted with scriptures that were properly exegeted that refutes their beliefs.
While we can have fun in debates and give "friendly digs" all in jest, it is another thing altogether what you have been doing.
Is that you? I am sad that you are insulting our brothers. Left overs from the Jim Jones crew? Wow, can't we just agree to disagree without being rude to each other? I still love you my sister, but I think that you should go back and reread your posts and consider whether an apology is in order.
WHAAAAT! LLydia, You won't meee, to apolo-WHOOOO????:nahnah:... Sorry, but there is no reason for such acknowledgment... Was this an insult toward either one of them?... I don't think so. I think it was more conviction than anything, and sometimes when the Holy Spirit convicts our hearts when people disagree with what we say, ot tells us something different tha what we THINK or thoguht we KNEW, it does feel insulting, only because that spirit of error that is controlling loses power when it comes against the truth of the HolySpirit of God.
BUT WAIT!....Weeelll, I suppose I should apologize for using Jim Jones' name... you're right I should apologize for comparing Leon's and Walter's interpretation of scripture to that of Jim Jones. Geeezzz, I had forgotten about Victor Wierwille, he would be a better character in such case.:yay::excited:...but drinking the kool-aid remains the same :winksmile: :yay:
OFFICIALLY FROM ME: Ok, here goes... Walter and Leon, I'm sorry for comparing your interpretation of scripture to that of what Jim Jones mustard out to his members. I should have been more considerate and to compare your scripture interpretation to that of Victor P. Wierwille instaed. Please forgive me:ROFL::ROFL::Mug::purpleangel:... Hey Walter, do you think the purle angel is for real?... I saw one this morning...:yay:... not saying that all of your teachings are in error but those things I have questioned and your saying the Holy Spirit is not pouring out gifts is very much in error...
Now Leon, since you on the other thread by Jeffro, used Matthew Henry which was great to do so, I would like for you to go to Henry's commentary (from the Whole Bible Commentary, not the Concise) well read them both. And/or all the other scholars who have written and translated the scriptures from Greek to English in the 140, 1500, and read what they have written about what you wrote I Corinthians chapter 13 means as your evidence to prove that the gift of the Spirit have ceased. I Corinthinas chapter 13 does not prove anything of the kind, and I know many ministers who think the Holy Spirit of God is not in operation today, who try to use this chapter as proof that God said the gifts have ceased. this chapter is saying no such thing. You fail to look at and/or connect the dots of the scripture together with what Paul is saying about the spiritual gifts and a more excellent gift of LOVE that God pours out through the power of His Holy Spiirt.
Paul writes that if there be tongues, they will cease, he names all these gifts, that will cease to be when comparing the stability of the gift of love. Love is eternal and has lasting power that will never end, love is heaven bound. Speaking in tongues (languages), or prophesying, or to have the ability to know things God reveals to you that othesr don't know, Paul says all these things will cease to be, they will not be important when Jesus comes, nor are they important to obtaining a place in heaven through salvation to living with the Lord. You can also look at this has having the meaning that those who are given these gifts, do die, and some get old and are not able to use them anymore. The gift of knowledge fades away with the mind, the gifts of prophecy, disappears and the the person is old and no longer able to hear the vocie of God clearly anymore, the gift of tongues, some people when they get old are unable to speak any longer so the tongues of langauages ceases it is cut off from speaking, but not because God has Stpped His power from flowing out through His Holy Spirit. But the more excellent gift we should seek to obtain is the gift of love which will take us into heaven and never ceases to be. Paul is speaking about perishable gifts that cease to be, fade away when camparing to the eternal gift of love. In heaven love is the only lasting gift, this is why Paul encourages that we seek the more excellent gift... then chapter is not telling us that the Holy Spirit of God has stopped giving out spiritual gifts.
And as for Paul being called as an apostle, connect the dots of scripture... we know where Paul was, yes, he was on the road to Damascus... that was nto my point, I sadi Jesus CALLED PAUL from heaven, and apppointed him as an apostle...so where was Jesus when Paul heard his voice? Do you think Jesus was at the local Quick-Stop corner stroe whe He called out to Paul, or Jesus was in heaven when Paul heard His voice. Selah...
Now Walter, as I've said before, there are times when responding to certain thngs isn't necessary when its plain in the Bible... You say I speak mu opion, well I have asked you several time to tell me where you're getting your information from? To me, what ou speak is for sure your opinion and is not biblical becasue what you say doesn't not line up with what scripture says. I know ou try to match the scritpures but it ain't happening... Plus, you keep jumping all over the place, and all I came to you with is where did you get the notion tha the Holy Spirit of God is no longer pouring our spiritual gifts? And where didi you get the notion of those things you stateed about philip, my concerns are not about Simon and your questions are indeed answered in the scriopture as to his person gain intents. So there is/was no need for me to go into unnecessary comments on that...
Now you've moved over to Peter without you answering who told you God is not pouring out His spirutal gifts upon all believers who believe by faith, and yes, by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit.Not faith that you dont' believe in God, but that youtoo can receive the gifts from the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, what is His purpose of coming to live within us? So who told YOU the Holy Spirit is no longe pouring out His power and His gifts? This is what I cam e to you and Leon with.... so lets; settle these things first which we have not done, but you guys have now gotten off talking about Peter wasn't suppose to do what he did nor were the disciples suppose to selcect Matthas as an apostle. you still aren;t connecting the dots, Mattias was with the disciples when they all walked with Jesu in His earthly ministry. Matthais was also aprt of those sent out as an apostle when Jesus sent them out on thier first missions journey and called them apsotles. Read the qualifications of the seacrh for an apostle.
(1) The man Not woman... the man must have been with all the rest of the disciples when they wlaked with Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry, and been with them when Jesus was baptized by John, and MUST have been ordained as one of the dsiciples/apostles who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. And the scripture reads... so the PRAYED, and said... YOU> LORD, (speaking to God, not to each others or to Peter, but to God in prayer) YOU>LORD, who knows the hearts of all men, show us which of these two men YOU have chosen, so that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship with us.... And they(meaning all the disciples, not just Peter) cast thier lots(votes) and the lot fell( this to me would indicate that God heard their prayers and answered by allowing the lot to fall on Matthias, wouldn't you think?) anyway, the lot fell upon Mattias and he was counted with the eleven apostles....
So tell me, where in the world do you guys come up with anything dofferent. Especailly about Pter and that Mattias was nto suppose to be the twelvth disciple/apostle, but Paul was called to be in that position. Jesus sent out 75 disciples on missions journeies and gave them all temporary power for their journey, and the Bible says the were called in that day apostles. What makes you think Paul is one who will be seated as the 12th apostle judging Israel?.. Your comments saound more like your opinion of you own interpretation of the Word, than what I have said based on my reading and study of the gospel connecting the dots. these things are not of interest to me and have nothing to do with ones salvation, who cares if Paul Joseph or Willima Hancock will be seatded with the tribes? When there is misinformed information and error in the word, this concernes me more that the technical stuff that has nothing to do with the soiritual wisdom, knowledge, or understanding God desires of us to gain and have power in when it comes to His word. I'm just so happy Paul and the disciples didn't get into stuff as this when giving out the gospel, becaus etis has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ unto salvation. Paul and the others did have very heated disputes over the gospel, and in Acts chapter 15, when the Judiaser came bringing another gospel into the church about how to obtain salvation. And when Alexandria the others who left following after Paul, and came preaching with another doctrine, teaching stuff that was not of the Apsotles' doctrine accoridng to what they had learned based on Christ's doctrine and about the resurrection of Chhrist.
And about Joel, no this has not been fulfilled and I never siad that it had. Neither did Peter, but Peter did say thi is that... and what did he mean by this is that? Peter was talkign about the fulfilling of God's Promise spoken through Joel, This is that God pouring out His power and Spirit upon those who were in the upper rooom....this is that... the manifestation fo the Holy Spirit coming to live inside all believer for the works and spreading of the gospel... this is that....
Also, Walter, you also asked if you were in violation of the hermeneutics principles in interpreting the scriptures... weelll, this is what I have to say about hemeneutics or hemenoodles as I call it LOL...
This is for those of you who do not know the meaning of this so-called BIG WORD, nor have some of you ever heard of this so-called BIG WORD, nor do you know where this so-called BIG WORD comes from. Don;t get me wrong Walter and Leon both are smart, but Walter loves the use of such swelling words in his biblcal studies, forgetting that the readers and/or hearers may not know or understand a word he is speaking:yay:
Hermeneutics have nothing to with the spiritualness of God or what God has said in His word. This is a man coined word some scholars and theologian use to TRY and interpret what God is saying, but in a lot of cases, especially, mordern day biblcal scholars and theologians many interpret scripture according to their own church doctrines and what they THINK GOD is saying. And these are usually the ones who doe not rely or believe that the Holy Spirit is still pouring out His pwoer and/or gifts in spiritual wisdom , knowledge, or understanding. ... you can see why there is no spiritual connection in some of this stuff that has been said on this thread, the use of man's caranl technique to interpret Gods divine word...
Hermeneutics was coined after the Greek mythology the messenger Hermes who communicated messages from the dead as to what they were supposedly saying... this is to me totally cultic and witchcraft... God says we are to seek HIS face and call upon His power and the Holy Spirit will lead us into all things and open our understaings and being us into the knowledge of His word... not some science of trying to figure out what God means or is saying in His word. So this theologian coined the word based after this deomn Hermes, and now anybidy who remotely thinks they got the know alls into what God is saying in His word, try to use this technique to interpret scripture... (waking away shaking my head:rolleyes::excited:)...
Hermeneutics is defined as the science or art of interpreting scripture based on certain principles that are taken into consideration.... This is not a God thing nor can you find it in the bible or in scripture, this is someman came up with because he was to lazy to beleiev and have faith and wait fro the pwoer of the Holy Spirit to empower him with what God desire of him to know His word... this is a man thing trying to know the mind of God, man's way.
Iam So glad Paul and the apostle never used any of this foolishness, but they were all filled with the power and the gifts of the Holy Spirit of God, with the working of the gifts of spiritual wisdom, knowledge, and understanding into God's mind and His word... and you say He is not in operation today??? hmmmm, I suppose He was in operation in the 1400 and 1500 when our church fathers interpretered the Word fo God from the Hebrew and Greek and Latin. Sute can't interpret scripture or anything of or about God without the pwoer of the Holy Spirit and Paul makes this very clear in I Corinthians chapters 1-3...
Gotta run for now... get back with the other later if I should have need to..:angel::hearts:
Leon this ones for oyu, you say you are a Calvinsit... well you should read what John Calvins writes. You will enjoy this site.
It is obvious from your reply to Lydia, Leon and myself, that you do not have the humility it takes to receive a proper rebuke. Instead you continue to demean and throw insults from a haughty self righteous spirit. That is not of God and comes from someone who is not walking in the Spirit. You seriously need to get right with God and reconsider your words and stop looking down your nose at others who disagree with you.
When someone like yourself attempts to discredit things like "Hermeneutics" it only goes to demonstrate your gross ignorance. You gave a bad definition of what it is because you really do not understand it and are obviously intimidated by it.
Hermeneutics are simply "principles" of the manner in which the scriptures are properly interpreted. Hermeneutics uses the following principles.
Historical method: This is taking the scriptures and trying to see them as the audience at the time they were written would have seen them. When we view scriptures it must be from "their" perspective and not a modern view point.
Literal Method: This is where we take the scriptures and interpret them literally unless it is obvious that it was not meant to be, such as when we see clear allegories.
Grammatical Method: This is where we examine the GRAMMAR of each word especially in the Greek language. We examine the verbs, nouns, pronouns, adjectives, prepositional phrases, etc. We look at whether a word is in the masculine, feminine or neuter. In the Greek language, the most precise language ever, has rules for everything and when we are consistent in following these rules and bring into account the Literal and Historical method, then when we translate a word, a phrase, a scripture, a passage, then we will arrive at the correct interpretation. It is only when someone's personal bias gets involved is when Hermeneutics can be skewed.
Do you think God in His infinite wisdom who invented languages, invented GRAMMAR and the rules that regulate grammar, wants us to understand what HE is saying? Of course HE does! One word improperly interpreted can change a doctrine.
When people like yourself try to say that the Holy Spirit taught them what they know or "revealed" it to them, it is only a means of trying to make ones self appear more spiritual than others or somehow has a more clear understanding. It's like trying to "Trump" the other person. It is simply a bad practice and actually weakens your position. Many times people who believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit are not. They are just being led by their own egos or perhaps another spirit who is deceiving them.
Do you know how to confirm if what you believe is of God or not?
God's written Word, properly interpreted, by consistently adhering to the principles of Hermeneutics. Does this mean that the Holy Spirit is not involved? Of course HE is but in debate forums like this, it is a bad practice to claim HE revealed something to you. You know why? Because when you are proven to be wrong, like Leon and I have consistently shown you to be, then you have to wonder what spirit have you been listening to.
Well Ella, I wasn't going to continue this, but I just wanted you to see what you are saying here. I will quote you on a few things, then show you what you are saying by saying these things.
(1) The man Not woman... the man must have been with all the rest of the disciples when they walked with Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry, and been with them when Jesus was baptized by John, and MUST have been ordained as one of the disciples/apostles who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus. And the scripture reads... so the PRAYED, and said... YOU> LORD, (speaking to God, not to each others or to Peter, but to God in prayer) YOU>LORD, who knows the hearts of all men, show us which of these two men YOU have chosen, so that he may take part of this ministry and apostleship with us.... And they(meaning all the disciples, not just Peter) cast their lots(votes) and the lot fell( this to me would indicate that God heard their prayers and answered by allowing the lot to fall on Matthias, wouldn't you think?) anyway, the lot fell upon Mattias and he was counted with the eleven apostles....
Now there are many things wrong here, but let's look at what you describe as the requirements of being an Apostle.
Ella
the man must have been with all the rest of the disciples when they walked with Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry, and been with them when Jesus was baptized by John, and MUST have been ordained as one of the disciples/apostles who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus.
Leon
Wow! You just called the Apostle Paul a liar! He said he was called to be an Apostle by Jesus, but if those are the requirements, he is excluded.
So, if Paul was a liar, I guess we can just throw out everything he wrote in the Bible...Oh, but that would include the part about Spiritual Gifts. So what now? Rip from Romans to Hebrews out and throw it away because they were written by a liar? What about Luke? He was Paul's disciple, should we take the gospel of Luke and Acts out as well? I mean, if he was taught by a liar, then wouldn't that corrupt his knowledge as well?
Ella
And they(meaning all the disciples, not just Peter) cast their lots(votes) and the lot fell( this to me would indicate that God heard their prayers and answered by allowing the lot to fall on Matthias,
Leon
Casting lots was not a vote, it was a game, much like our rolling dice, and was the main method of gambling at the time. No vote, pure chance.
Ella
Jesus sent out 75 disciples on missions journeys and gave them all temporary power for their journey, and the Bible says the were called in that day apostles. What makes you think Paul is one who will be seated as the 12th apostle judging Israel?
Leon
This account appears in Luke 10, and the Bible never once, in any of the translations I checked, called them Apostles.
Matthias never claimed in writing to be an Apostle. Paul did, and was accepted by all the others as such. Show me one place in the bible, other than where they cast lots, where Matthias was called an Apostle. I can show you many where Paul is called that.
Peter chose Matthias, Jesus chose Paul....you decide who you trust most, I KNOW who I do.
Ella
Leon this ones for you, you say you are a Calvinist... well you should read what John Calvin writes. You will enjoy this site.
Leon
Ella, maybe this is part of the problem, if you had actually read what I have written, I said I was not a Calvinist, and that I thought the truth lies somewhere in between.
You may very well be led by the Spirit, but if that Spirit is showing you something that goes against God's word, maybe it is time to check that spirit and see if it is of God.
Ella, is there a point in apologizing and then continuing to insult and mock our brothers opinions? I hope that I never get to a point in my walk where I feel that I have arrived and know it all, and then attack others who disagree with me.
Do you consider this godly behavior? Should we be more concerned with being right than learning the truth and growing in our faith? Isn't a sign of Christian maturity how we treat others?
I recently was challenged by a couple of brothers about my beliefs on the rapture of the church, I did not get mad at them but instead investigated their arguments and accompanying scriptures and now I am not so sure about my position. An open mind is a beautiful thing and allows us to learn and grow in our faith.
Glad you changed your mind about bailing out, you know you can't be doing that if you're a teacher of God's Word. Where would we be if Jesus, and Paul and the others had bailed out when they faced opposition?:applause: ... Surely, they had more cause to bail out, than you... wouldn't you say?
Ok, Leon let's connect the dots of scripture. I will write as much as I can from what you have brought forth. I had to write your points down since I don't know how to cut and pastes... hopefully, I can type this without all the typos:yay:
(1) When I stated, "men NOT women, this is referencing women in some denominations in churches today, who are calling themselves Bishops and Apostles. God never called a woman in either of these positions. So this is what I meant.
(2) Paul never walked with Jesus as did the other disciples in His earthly ministry, but Paul experienced something more greater than any of the disciples could have even imagined in His first hand up close face to face encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus in his conversion, AFTER Jesus was seated in heaven. Paul met God/Jesus in a personal encounter on the road to Damascus as he was going to have the Christians arrested because of their beliefs in Jesus. (Acts chapter 9) and Jesus said to Ananias, Go, for he (Paul) is a chosen bessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israle. For I will show him (Paul) how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."
Remember, Paul also had another close encounter with the Lord, don't know when this was, or if it happened during the time he was waiting for his call, and scripture doesn't tell us, but it does tell us that Paul had a vision and was caught up in the heaven in the presence of the Lord. (2 Corinthians chapter 12). So this should answer what I said, Paul was called by Jesus from heaven, where as the other disciples were called by Jesus as He walked in His earthly ministry.
(3) You assume because of what I said, I call Paul a liar, well, which is worse to call Paul a liar, or to call God a liar in unbelief? God has stated throughout the writings of Paul that the Holy Spirit will empower us with spiritual gifts and blessings for the works of His ministry. You guys claim that the gifts have ceased,. So in whom should I believe? ... What you and Walter say, or what Paul has written as the inspired word of the Living God, and what God has given Paul to write? You can't have it both ways. Your way and then, say, we might as well throw out what Paul has written and call him a lair. Well, I say, if God is no longer pouring out His gifts of the Holy Spirit as He says He is, and these gifts are for, and to ALL believers. Then, we very well should throw out the complete Bible, because then, if we believe this, what parts of scriptures are we to pick out and believe if we are not suppose to believe all of it? If God is not pouring out Hi spiritual gifts for the church today, then what part of Paul's writings do we know to be for today? How do we determine this? If what you say and believe is true...
(4) If calling Paul a liar, why is it not the same for God, if the truth as to what He is or is no longer doing is true. I still ask WHO TOLD YOU GOD IS NO LONGER POURING OUT HIS POWER AND HIS GIFTS THROUGH HIS HOLY SPIRIT? If Paul is supposedly writng what God has instructed him to write, don't you think God would be smart enough to know that in the 21st century there would be those of us who would still believe and those who do not believe in receiivng His gifts? And would have included this information in His word more clearer than what you point out in I Corinthians chapter 13?... I would think nad hope so. So How does one go about picking out in God's word what's for today and what isn't? Is man not so smart in God's word that he can now tell us what God is and is not doing. Who has stood in God presence or in His counsel giving His advice? This is where the use of man coined terms and ideas try to over pwoer the word and power of God. Hermeneutics and all the other terms and technuiques and theiroies man has come up with to decide what God is saying and not depending upon the Holy Spirit. Being grounded and rooted in the word of God is to believe everything that God says, and all that you don't understand, God will reveal... Now this is what my Bible tells me... this revents every wind of doctrine from creeping in as according to Ephesians chapter 4. until we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God...
(4) Ok, We're still connecting the dots of scripture. You state that there is no where in the Bible that you have found where Jesus called the disciples apostles, even in Luke 10 (or something to this effect)... Well, this is what Luke 6 has to say: And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus went out into a mountain to pray, and continued there all night in prayer to God. And when it was day, He called to Him his disciples and of them he chose twelve, who HE ALSO NAMED APOSTLES. (Luke chapter 6: verse 12-13, thenit gieson to named those He caled to himsleve and named apostles.. Therefore, in the disciples' prayer in chosing which disciples to pick asking God to show them between Joseph and Mattias it tells us that they ASK GOD to show them which one He chose... The scripture reads their prayer as saying, SHOW US WHICH ONE OF THESE TWO YOU HAVE CHOSEN.... it does not say any where that Peter made this choice nor does it say the other disciples made the choice it say they ask God to show them which one was HIS CHOICE. Then the scripture continues to say that... And they cast their lots, it doesn't matter if they rolled dice, or threw stones, or used short and long straws, it was still a vote each disciples put forth and the scriptures say that the lot fell upon Mattias and he was counted with the eleven apostles. So was is so hard to see that Mattias was an apostel with them. Read the Prayer, Read verse 21-26. Its very clear and goes against what you guys are saying. Peter was chosen by Jesus to start the church, when Jesus gave him the kieys to the kingdom and appointed him to build the church.
(50 Sorry, if I misunderstood after readin some of the posts between you and Walter, and thought this went to mean you were a Calvinist. This shouldn't be such problem. Calvin has done a great work interpreting the word of God, and influences in the religious community as it relates to the Bible. in fact I have used a lot of Calvin's teachings on certain things.
Did you forget the points you were trying to make in your other post? The Bible does not promise to make anyone today a prophet, or give them the other gifts that we were talking about. Let me deal first with what you have written in the first two posts here....yes, I am going to show you what your other post said, since you seem to want to sidestep a little now.
Ella 1
Matthais was also aprt of those sent out as an apostle when Jesus sent them out on thier first missions journey and called them apsotles. Read the qualifications of the seacrh for an apostle.
(1) The man Not woman... the man must have been with all the rest of the disciples when they wlaked with Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry, and been with them when Jesus was baptized by John, and MUST have been ordained as one of the dsiciples/apostles who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus.
Ella 2
(1) When I stated, "men NOT women, this is referencing women in some denominations in churches today, who are calling themselves Bishops and Apostles. God never called a woman in either of these positions. So this is what I meant.
(2) Paul never walked with Jesus as did the other disciples in His earthly ministry, but Paul experienced something more greater than any of the disciples could have even imagined in His first hand up close face to face encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus in his conversion, AFTER Jesus was seated in heaven. Paul met God/Jesus in a personal encounter on the road to Damascus as he was going to have the Christians arrested because of their beliefs in Jesus.
Leon
You are the one that said the things listed in post1 were the requirements of an Apostle. Paul fit none of these, so either your reasoning is wrong or Paul is a liar.
Women have never been a part of this discussion.
You also said that Matthias was sent out as an Apostle in #1, this is not true. He was maybe sent out with the rest of the 70, but these were never called Apostles by anyone but you. Jesus picked 12 disciples that were made Apostles, not 70. You will find no place in the Bible that says that, because it didn't happen. If you see one of my other posts, you will know the importance of why there have always been only 12. Also, the Calvin commentary you were bragging about says the same thing.
Ella 2
(3) You assume because of what I said, I call Paul a liar, well, which is worse to call Paul a liar, or to call God a liar in unbelief? God has stated throughout the writings of Paul that the Holy Spirit will empower us with spiritual gifts and blessings for the works of His ministry.
Leon
Show me in scripture one time where Paul said we would all be given these gifts. But, don't come to me with some off the wall thing about what God promised the Apostles goes for all of us, because that is a lie straight from hell. We have demonstrated that throughout the Bible, the anointing (Gifts) of God is for only the ones He chooses, and then ONLY for God's purpose. The one who gets the original anointing can pass it on, but it can not be passed after that.
When the gifts died the second generation after Christ, we went back to the way things have ALWAYS been. If God needs a Prophet, He anoints one and sends him out. Prophets in the Bible were never doubted, they demonstrated the power that God had given them. AND everything they said would happen .... happened. They didn't wander a congregation telling people how good they were doing, they went out to a disobedient and rebellious nation to tell them if they didn't repent, they would fall into judgment.
Ella 1
Jesus sent out 75 disciples on missions journeies and gave them all temporary power for their journey, and the Bible says the were called in that day apostles. What makes you think Paul is one who will be seated as the 12th apostle judging Israel?
Ella 2
(4) Ok, We're still connecting the dots of scripture. You state that there is no where in the Bible that you have found where Jesus called the disciples apostles, even in Luke 10 (or something to this effect)... Well, this is what Luke 6 has to say: And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus went out into a mountain to pray, and continued there all night in prayer to God. And when it was day, He called to Him his disciples and of them he chose twelve, who HE ALSO NAMED APOSTLES.
Leon
I told you there is nowhere in the Bible that says the 70 were ever called Apostles by anyone but you. This was your attempt to prove that there were more than 12 Apostles. Sorry, doesn't work that way.
The first rule when reading scripture is to know who was being addressed. This modern movement in thinking that everything applies to us is false. It always has been false, and it always will be false....do you know why? Because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Isn't that the quote you like to use?
Yes, I believe that there could well be people out there walking under the anointing of God, why not? God always does that IF He needs something done. But I would run, if you are in a church where 3 or 4 people are claiming it. It just doesn't happen that way. There may not even be any living at this time, and if there are, you could probably count them on the fingers of one hand.
I am not going any deeper in to this. This is the same result that always happens when this is discussed. No one ever even listens to the other side, they think if they repeat the same things long enough someone will believe it.
Oh, c'mon Leon, don't get so technical, and loses focus on substance...
I never said we were discussing women, I only put that is because there are some women and men who feel that women can be bishops and apostles... don't go there. Also, if you read what I wrote, you will see what I said about Jesus calliing His disciples to him, and naming them apostles, and the scripture goes on to give us their names. Usuallt when you try to find fault or something ti pick at, one tend to miss what is said because the focus in no longer on the content, but the context of a miss word or wrong word.
Anyway. FYI...
I went to the web and found these sites that may be of interest to you or others... as it relates to casting lots and Matthias...
