This discussion will be a controversial one no doubt but one that I hope all will be open to searching out God's truth as opposed to having preconceptions about what we believe or have been taught.
In dealing with the Spiritual Gifts in the New Testament it is interesting to note that after the initial occurrance at Pentecost in the upper room when the Holy Spirit for the first time descended upon all the disciples that were there, there was only one exception when the Holy Spirit gave gifts prior to the laying on of hands by the Apostles. However an Apostle was present.
The incident was dealing with Peter who was not with the program so to speak so the Holy Spirit had to get him moving. haha. Other than that no one after ever received any of the spiritual gifts UNLESS the Apostles personally laid their hands on that person or the Apostles were at least present. It is also interesting to note that only the Apostles had the power to lay hands and impart spiritual gifts. Whoever received the spiritual gifts never had the power to impart those gifts to someone else. The person receiving gifts had the power of using the gifts but not to pass on the gifts themselves.
One of the most critical passages concerning this issue is below in Acts 8.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Notice that Phillip was utilizing the power of the gifts he had but also notice that the Apostles had to come and lay hands in order for other people to receive the gifts themselves. Phillip did NOT have the power to impart any gifts himself.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
What is often misunderstood by Charismatics and Pentecostals is that when the scriptures talk about the Holy Spirit "falling down" on someone it is not talking about "Salvation" as everyone who places their faith in Christ, repents and is Baptized automatically receives the Holy Spirit Himself. When scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit falling upon someone or they had not received the Holy Spirit as yet, it is speaking about the impartation of the gifts.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (talking about gifts)
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." NKJV
What did Simon observe?
That the Apostles had a special power no one else had and that power was the ability to lay hands on people and impart the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other terms, the Holy Spirit only imparted the gifts THROUGH the Apostles by their laying on of their hands. This is the normal method in which the Holy Spirit operated. There was one other instance where people received the gifts without the laying on of hands by the Apostles BUT the Apostles were still present when this occurred.
Let's look at Romans and take notice of something that also supports the other scriptures.
In Rome a church had been formed but no Apostles had yet visited it and established it.
Rom 1:10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.
11 For I long to see you, THAT I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established�
12 that is, that I may be encouraged together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me. NKJV
Here we see that the Roman Christians who were "saved" had not as yet received any supernatural "gifts". So it demonstrates that receiving gifts was not something the Holy Spirit did automatically upon salvation.
What had to happen?
An Apostle of Jesus Christ had to be physically present to impart the gifts through the "laying on of hands".
Here is another passage dealing with the special powers given exclusively to the Apostles and those who had received the gifts AT THAT TIME.
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
15 & 16 applies to us today as well as this is a commandment for us to spread the Gospel.
17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Verse 17 & 18 are not for the church today as no one has the legitimate gifts imparted by the Apostles of Christ because they are all dead and in Heaven now. No one today can cast out a demon nor drink poison and expect to live or handle a deadly snake and once bitten expect to live. No one also can lay hands on the sick and heal them today. God can do it and does perform miracles but no human has the" supernatural power" that the 12 Apostles of Jesus Christ had. There are many fakers, many frauds and many well meaning deceived Christians who believe that they posses a "supernatural gift" from the Holy Spirit. The problem is that their beliefs are based upon some really bad teachings from gross misinterpretations of scriptures and "feelings". Men like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and their ilk have all been exposed for their fraudulent practices and giving False Prophesies...yet...people still follow them and will not accept the truth about them.
19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And they [the Apostles]went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them [ the Apostles] and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen. NKJV
I want to point out a few things here. First when the scripture here referres to "these signs will follow those that believe" and they will take up serpents, etc.,...this is talking about those who received the word of God FROM the Apostles and had hands laid upon them BY the Apostles of Christ. That as we have seen above is the normal method that a person received a spiritual gift. This is the proper interpretation of this passage. Now what is the "application" of this so far? Can we apply this for Christians today? I don't believe so because if that were true then Christians claiming to have received supernatural gifts would have these exact same powers as those above. They/ WE would be able to handle serpents and not be harmed... and also we could drink poisons and not be harmed. So I do not see any Biblical evidence to support the gifts being for today.
Now, you are clear. So you do believe, as I believe. But where did you get the 144,000 from?... help me to understand.
Plus, I think Walter is trying to prove that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer for our generation, and there is no healing, or miracles or signs and wonders going on today. He also states that the apostles gave out or imparted the gifts and that's just not scriptural. Now I do not believe in the tongue thing as in gibberish people are speaking in churches, and telling others that unless you speak in this foolishness, you're not saved. That for sure, isn't scriptural. But God never told us that we couldn't work miracles Jesus said greater things than these we will do, if we believe. So did He lie?... So what greater things, greater things than what the disciples saw or we have read tha He did, and we have no idea as to what all He did.
As the scripture goes, many are called, but few are chosen. Why is this, because all who are called come in unbelief and are not willing to render their bodies up (which means to give up self) to Christ as a living sacrifice as did the disciples for the sake of the gospel. Only the few who are chosen, are willing and count it all nought. And who know it just might only be 144,000, but I've never seen this in the Bible. So help a sista out with this number:glow:
Come forth Walter and defend your statments...:excited:
This is exactly why we don't see the miracles today... separation of the Body.. How many denominations does Christianity have? How much scripture is compromised then poured out into the world? It makes me sick.
The miracles of the old Church were very evident. They aren't today. What changed? Did the Lord change? Absolutely not! Did His Word change? No! We changed... we changed...
We need to act as one Body with Christ as the Head in order to have the same mind, same heart, and the same goals and purposes. We don't.. They did. The old Church was of one accord. We obviously are not. The Body of Christ is separated today because we compromise the Word of God. The result is that we are not of one accord. Lord have mercy on us.
We're warned about the above-mentioned in many places within the Word, but this specifically is speaking to me write now - Titus 3:9,10. As well as Rev2, the Compromising Church that placed stumbling blocks in front of the children of Israel.
I get the 144,000 from Revelation. The 12,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes. They are sealed on the forehead. I believe these are to bring people to the Lord during the tribulation period.
Joseph,
I think we have all been right where you are at right now. Saddened by the division among the body. Never fear! God has a plan, read Zephaniah 3:9, and you will get a glimpse of it. We will come together of one accord, when God restores to us the pure language, and we meet Christ in the air.
Whatever you believe the reason to be that these miracles don't happen today, God was well aware that it would happen. He is always in control. He is never surprised, He knew the end before there was a beginning. As much as we worry and grieve over things, that is not what we are supposed to do. We have to have faith that God is in control. Whether you believe He planned it this way, or that this is what we made it, really doesn't matter. What matters is, God always knew this is where we would be right now.
Just as He knew what I would write to you before I did.
God's peace dear brother, we just think we are in control. Aren't we arrogant?
Thanks Leon. That definitely brought me some peace. It tends to get me saddened and breaks my heart when I see these things. Because some may not know what they are doing.. they think they are doing right.. thus they won't repent. All I can do is pray for them. I guess I get a little passionate towards my brothers and sister's souls. I love all of them.
Joseph, Joseph, you are so right my brother. The very first thing we read in Acts chapter 2, verse 1, ... they were ALL with/in One accord in one place. You can't have it both ways, believe some parts of the Bible, or believe verses 1-7, and not 8-10... it doesn't work like that...
The church of the Living God is not all in one accord in the Word or things of God. There is too much unbelief in taking God's word for what it says, and man has made it to read and sound reasonable to himself.
This is why I had to speak out about what Walter has posted, it is so in error. He states that only half of the Great Commssion is for the church today, but as in Mark 16:verses 17 -18 does not apply to us today, because the apostles are not here to lay hands on anyone to impart the gifts....duh! and Leon, you agree with this notion...
I'm trying to find out where in the misst Walter got this information? And who told him we as believers don't have the gifts of the Holy Spirit to cast out demons as Jesus said or any of the other gifts. This is in total error. There is no unity in the Christian community that's why there are no miracles except among those who believe. I've seen them and heard for myself, and I know what God says is truth. It is only those who do not believe in all of God's word who don't believe that everything written is for ALL who believe. It is those who don't have simple faith the size of a mustard seed, that through the power of the Holy Spirit, they too, in the name of Jesus can lay hands on the sick and they shall be healed, and cast out demons in the name of Jesus. This is the problem, the unbelievers speak and preach to the world their unbelief, and teach others not to call on the name of Jesus. They also don't teach that God will empower them with the Holy Spirit if they do as the disciples and wait to be baptized by the fire of the Holy Spirit in order to receive the gifts of the Spirit.
As I've said, the word of God teaches us that ALL believers receive the Holy Spirit once they believe and confess Jesus Christ. But only a few receive the baptism of the fire to receive the gifts, because of their unbelief.
Geeezzzz, I wish we had a quote button, so I could respond to all Walter has written without having to return back to the page...
Also, Leon, I really can't get a grip of where the passage you speak about, is evident that these are they, who will have all the gifts in the last days. Joel doesn't say this, so how are you reading this into the 144,000 who will have the gifts? They might be, but I duuunnno... scripture doesn't indicate this.
I mean no harm, but where are you guys getting your theology , scripture interpretations, and doctrine? Who are your teachers?...:excited: LOL. If what Walter and you, Leon believe is true, does this mean that what Joel states also a lie or only half of it? Joel teels us, That in the last days God is not going to pour out His Spirit on all flesh? In other words, most of what Walter has written contradicts what Jesus and Paul and God says, which makes the Bible half truth and the other half a lie.... right?... so Joel wasn't speaking about us in the last days, is this what you guys believe?
But as you know the last Days didn't happen on the day of Pentecost, they are yet to come. So are we to sort out what is true for today, and what was true for the past and is no more, and what is going to be true for the last days to come? Cause, if its not all true, its a lie, and this is basely what Walter is saying, that no one today has received the gifts because all the apostles are dead and gone to heaven, and no one in this 21st century can impart the gifts as did the apostles. WHAAAATT?!!! :nahnah:
This is in error.... :excited: I realize there some things in the OT that don't apply to us today, because we're under grace, and Jesus is our new covenant. But I sure never knew what's in the New Testament is also not for us today, in the New Testamnet Church. WOW!
Come out , come out Walter wherever you are...:yay: I know you're reading but just not responding. You wrote what you wrote, because you believe what you are saying, so defend yourself...:boxing:
Leon, this is why we are told to have fellowship with each other and reason in the scripture with one another, so if there are any errors, those who are spiritual should correct the errors. But we must be able to discuss all we know and believe for clear understanding, in order to come into agreement as one. Good word you gave...
Now back to the 144,000, are you speaking about those in Revelation chapter 7?. Are not these those who are sealed before the Tribulation judgement starts. So how are they the only ones as you see it, who will receive all the gifts? Help me out here...
Okay, it is a simple matter of deduction. If God's spirit is poured out in the last days, and the church is raptured before the tribulation period, who is there left for His spirit to be poured out on? The ones who will need it as a sign to unbelievers, so that they will believe before it is too late. Thus the 144,000 witnesses that we know are going to still be here doing God's work.
ELLA! What's a good Baptist girl like you doing believing in the gifts of the spirit? LOL. Didn't your Mama teach you better than that? LOL. Just kidding, I was raised Baptist, too. I still go to one, and even preach there on occasion. I did go to a Pentecostal School though. I do know that we are not doing greater things than these, as Christ said we would. That means it is yet to happen, so it will.
You better repent, why next thing you know you will be out dancing. LOL.
We're already living in the last day, Jesus just hasn't come. BUT, God hasn't stopped pouring out His Spirit of fire for the work of the ministry, upon those who believe and submit to His call to be His witnesses, the pwoer of the Holy Spirit is waiting on us to submit to Him. We, as belivers are suppose to be willing to offer up oursleves to Him and submit to the Spirit of the Lord, just as the disciples did when Jesus walked through and told each one to follow Him and they dropped everything they were doing and followed Him.
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable, and the gifts are inputed in us and the call of God is upon all of us. But we have not sought fit to allow Him to activate the gifts with His power or the commission the call He has already given us to go do His work. We need power to witness to others about Jesus Christ and to save the lost, and there is no power in the church among believers, that's why no one can cast out even the unclean spirits and demons that are hindering in our families, schools, and in those who are coming up against the church in society. As Joseph stated, God hasn't changed, His power hasn't changed, His call for workers hasn't changed, nor has His outpouring of His Holy Spirit cahnged. WE THE PEOPLE HAVE CHANGED! We are carnal and no longer feel we need God's power to do anything in our lives. WE are of our own strength and rules, and FREE WILLS.... :zzzz:
We glamorize sin, and are afraid to call out even the ministers we see and know are in sin... we call lust, love; adultery, an affair; fornication, making love/out; homosexuality, normal; and on and on. All these things God calls SIN we, frown upon them and change the names to sound pleasing to our ears and eyes.
We all have all been called to be His witnesses and tell it like He says it, and the promises of the Holy Spirit are to all who believe. But we reject the offers, so we as believers are in disobedience, and refuse to give up oursleves to receive the spiritual blessings of the Lord. I, personally am working toward that goal of receiving the fire baptism of the Holy Spirit and gifts. And I can tell you know God is doing many great things and working through me as I go forth in ministry. There are times I'm amazed myself, as to what the Holy Spirit does in me. I have submitted myself to receive all the God has for me, and He is using me mightily in His works.
Hey, maaan, I was raised with the best of both faiths. My daddy was a Baptist minister/pastor of a church, and my mom was a Pentacostal missionary, so I have both the faith and understanding of the Pentacostal and Baptist beliefs. And as for dancing...Heeey! I can dust some carpet!:ROFL:
But you know, in the Black Baptist churches when I grew up, we have always danced before the Lord in our church, so dancing ain't no big deal for us. I've got both the Pentacostal dance and the Baptist shout:yay:
My mom use to say, that gal shoo can "holy-go", meaning dance. LOL
I'm still waiting on Walter to return and explain his interpretation of what he has written and why he thinks as he does, since he states everybody else is wrong in their beliefs. This could be a wonderful learning thread, if he would return and continue in the discussion. Instead of hitting and hidding when the questions start coming in LOL. He can't do that!... so, I'll keep ragging at him until he comes out of his corner to defend his opinions...LOL
Since I was taught by the Pentecostals, I understand what you are saying, and I know where you are getting it.
They are big on the Joel prophesy as quoted in Acts 2. The problem is, that is a partially filled prophesy. I haven't seen the sun fall from the sky, the moon turn to blood, or the heavens roll up like a scroll.
God has blessed me beyond my wildest dreams. He answers every prayer that I pray, and even shows me if my requests will be fulfilled, most of the time. I have prayed for, and seen many people healed, even when I was the only person praying. My point is, it is God doing it because someone prayed and asked. The Apostles didn't have to pray, Peter's shadow healed people. Paul's clothes.
This is the Spirit of God, like that which came on Jesus when He was baptized. Like that which Elijah had. Like Samson had. Like many Old Testament Prophets received. The spirit of Christ comes to live in us when we accept Him as our Lord and Savior (Crying out Abba Father). When God has a purpose for us, He will give us the power to accomplish it. I am not saying that no one has that Spirit today, just that WE can't claim it and make it happen.
Like all things, our Father is the one that controls it. It can not have anything to do with us being worthy of the gifts, we are all washed clean by the blood of Christ. Saying we are not worthy now, is like saying Jesus blood was not enough to cleanse us. That is not true. Jesus died for us, when God looks at us, He sees Jesus, pure and perfect. Is there anything He would have withheld from His Son?
The time is coming, and soon, when there will be great need in this world, and then God will once again release His Spirit upon all His people, and there will be no debate or doubt, for everyone will know that He is God. We stand at the edge of the beginning of sorrows, all the signs are here for the first time since Jesus died. We will see things that haven't been seen in almost 2,000 years. Jesus said there would be signs and wonders, the signs are here, guess what is coming.
This is what I believe and why. I know that you don't agree, and all I can say is, keep your eyes open and you will see the difference between the gifts, and God granting our requests. When people walk down the streets, raising every dead person, and healing every sick person instantly, without prayer, you will see what I am talking about.
