"The hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions, but the willingness to submit every tradition,however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform."
�JOHN STOTT, TWENTIETH-CENTURY BRITISH MINISTER AND
BIBLE SCHOLAR
"The real trouble is not in fact that the church is too rich but that it has become heavily institutionalized, with a crushing investment in maintenance. It has the characteristics of the dinosaur and battleship. It is saddled with a plant and a programme beyond its means, so that it is absorbed in problems of supply and preoccupied with survival.The inertia of the machine is such that the financial allocations, the legalities, the channels of organization, the attitudes of mind, a real set in the direction of continuing and enhancing the status quo. If one wants to pursue a course which cuts across these channels,then most of one's energies are exhausted before one ever reaches the enemy lines."
�JOHN A. T. ROBINSON, TWENTIETH-CENTURY ENGLISH
NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLAR
WALK INTO ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH service and you'll find it will usu-ally begin with the singing of hymns, choruses, or praise and worship songs. One person (or a team of people) will both lead and direct the singing. In more traditional churches, it will be the choir director or the music minister. (In some churches, this role is even played by the senior pastor.) Or it may be handled by the choir itself. In con-temporary churches, it will be the worship leader or the praise and worship team.
Leading up to the sermon, those who "lead worship" select the songs that are to be sung. They begin those songs. They decide how those songs are to be sung. And they decide when those songs are over. Those sitting in the audience in no way, shape, or form lead the singing. They are led by someone else who is often part of the clerical staff�or who has similar stature.
This is in stark contrast to the first-century way. In the early church, worship and singing were in the hands of all of God's people.' The church herself led her own songs. Singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists.
THE ORIGINS OF THE CHOIR
This all began to change with the rise of the clergy and the advent of the Christian choir, which dates back to the fourth century. Shortly after the Edict of Milan (AD 313), the persecution of Christians ceased. During Constantine's reign, choirs were developed and trained to help celebrate the Eucharist. The practice was borrowed from Roman custom, which began its imperial ceremonies with processional music. Special schools were established, and choir singers were given the status of a second-string clergy.
The roots of the choir are found in the pagan Greek temples and Greek dramas.' Will Durant states it beautifully: "In the MiddleAges, as in ancient Greece, the main fountainhead of drama was inreligious liturgy. The Mass itself was a dramatic spectacle; the sanc-tuary a sacred stage; the celebrants wore symbolic costumes; priestand acolytes engaged in dialogue; and the antiphonal responses ofpriest and choir, and of choir to choir, suggested precisely that sameevolution of drama from dialogue that had generated the sacredDionysian play."'
With the advent of the choir in the Christian church, singing was no longer done by all of God's people but by clerical staff composed of trained singers.' This shift was partly due to the fact thatheretical doctrines were spread through hymn singing. The clergyfelt that if the singing of hymns was in their control, it would curb thespread of heresy.' But it was also rooted in the ever-growing powerof the clergy as the main performers in the Christian drama.'
By AD 367, congregational singing was altogether banned. Itwas replaced by music from the trained choirs.' Thus was born thetrained professional singer in the church. Singing in Christian worship was now the domain of the clergy and choir.
Ambrose is credited for creating the first postapostolic Christianhymns.' These hymns were modeled on the old Greek modes and called by Greek names.' Ambrose also created a collection of liturgi-cal chants that are still used today in some Catholic churches." Theliturgical chant is the direct descendant of the pagan Roman chant,which goes back to the ancient Sumarian cities."
Papal choirs began in the fifth century." When Gregory theGreat became pope near the end of the sixth century, he reorganizedthe Schola Cantorum (school of singing) in Rome. (This school wasfounded by Pope Sylvester, who died in AD 335.)
With this school, Gregory established professional singers whotrained Christian choirs all throughout the Roman Empire. The singers trained for nine years. They had to memorize every song that they sang�including the famous Gregorian chant." Gregory wipedout the last vestiges of congregational singing, believing music was aclerical function and the exclusive right of trained singers.
Trained choirs, trained singers, and the end of congregationalsinging all reflected the cultural mind-set of the Greeks. Much likeoratory (professional speaking), the Greek culture was built aroundan audience-performer dynamic. Tragically, this trait was carried overfrom the temples of Diana and the Greek dramas straight into theChristian church. The congregation of God's people became spectatorsnot only in spoken ministry, but in singing as well.' Regrettably, thespirit of Greek spectatorship still lives in the contemporary church.
Christian boys' choirs also go back to the days of Constantine.Some still exist. Most were created from orphanages." The Vienna Boys Choir, for example, was founded in Vienna, Austria, in 1498. Thechoir sang exclusively for the court, at Mass, and at private concertsand state events." The first boys' choirs were actually established bypagans who worshipped Greco-Roman gods." These pagans believedthat the voice of young boys possessed special powers."
THE FUNERAL DIRGE AND PROCESSION
Another form of music with pagan roots is the funeral dirge. It was brought into the Christian church in the early third century. As one scholar put it, "The pagan cult of the dead was too much a part of thepast lives of many Christians, formerly pagans, for them simply to beable to replace pagan dirges and funeral music with Psalmody.'
During the days of Constantine, Roman betrothal practices andfuneral processions were adapted and transformed into Christian"funerals."This was borrowed from pagan practice." The so-calledfuneral dirge that is observed and accepted by Christians also cameout of paganism.' It was brought into the Christian church in theearly third century. Tertullian was opposed to Christian funeral pro-cession simply because it had pagan origins.'
Not only did the funeral procession emerge out of paganism; sodid the funeral oration. It was the common practice of pagans in theRoman Empire to hire one of the town's eloquent professors to speakat the funeral of a loved one. The speaker followed a little handbookfor such occasions. He would work himself up to a passionate pitchand then say of the deceased, "He now lives among the gods, travers-ing the heavens and looking down on life below."" It was his job to comfort the loved ones of the deceased. This role is filled today bythe contemporary pastor. Even the words of the oration are strikinglysimilar!
THE CONTRIBUTION OF THE REFORMATION
The major musical contribution of the Reformers was the restora-tion of congregational singing and the use of instruments. John Huss(1372-1415) of Bohemia and his followers (called Hussites) wereamong the first to bring both back into the church.'-'
Luther also encouraged congregational singing during certain partsof the service.' But congregational hymn singing did not reach its peakuntil the eighteenth century during the Wesleyan revival in England."
In Reformation churches, the choir remained. It both supportedand led congregational singing." About 150 years after the Reforma-tion, congregational singing became a generally accepted practice." Bythe eighteenth century, the organ would take the place of the choir inleading Christian worship."
Interestingly, there is no evidence of musical instruments in theChristian church service until the Middle Ages." Before then, all sing-ing during the service was unaccompanied by musical instruments.'
The church fathers took a dim view of musical instruments, associat-ing them with immorality and idolatry.35 Calvin agreed, viewing musi-cal instruments as pagan. Consequently, for two centuries, Reformedchurches sang psalms without the use of instruments."
The organ was the first instrument used by post-ConstantinianChristians.' Organs were found in Christian churches as early asthe sixth century. But they were not used during the Mass until thetwelfth century. By the thirteenth century, the organ became an inte-gral part of the Mass."
The organ was first used to give the tone to the priests and thechoir." During the Reformation, the organ became the standardinstrument used in Protestant worship�except among the Calvin-ists, who removed and demolished church organs.' The first organto be purchased by an American church was in 1704.41
The first Protestant choirs began flourishing in the mid-eighteenthcentury." Special seats were assigned to choir members to show theirspecial status.
At first, the function of the choir was to set the pitch for con-gregational singing. But before long, the choir began to contributespecial selections.' Thus was born special music by the choir as thecongregation watched it perform.
By the end of the nineteenth century, the children's choir made itsappearance in American churches.' By this time, it became customaryfor the choir in nonliturgical churches to play special music. (Thispractice was eventually carried over to liturgical churches as well.)"
The location of the choir is worth noting. In the late sixteenthcentury, the choir moved from the chancel (clergy platform) to therear gallery where a pipe organ was installed.' But during the OxfordMovement of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, thechoir returned to the chancel. It was at this time that choir membersbegan wearing ecclesiastical robes." By the 1920s and 1930s, it wascustomary for American choirs to wear these special vestments tomatch the newly acquired neo-Gothic church buildings." The choirin their archaic clerical clothes were now standing with the clergy infront of the people!"
THE ORIGIN OF THE WORSHIP TEAM
In many contemporary churches, whether charismatic or noncharis-matic, the choir has been replaced by the worship team." Suchchurches have sanctuaries that boast few religious symbols (exceptpossibly banners).
At the front of the stage is a simple podium, some plants, ampli-fiers, speakers, and lots of wires. The dress is usually casual. Foldingchairs or theater seats typically are used in place of pews. The standardworship team includes an amplified guitar, drums, keyboard, possiblya bass guitar, and some special vocalists. Words are usually projectedonto a screen or a bare wall by an overhead (or video) projector or byPowerPoint slides. The songs are typically selected before the wor-ship service. There are rarely songbooks or hymnals.
In such churches, worship means following the band's prescribedsongs. The praise and worship time typically lasts from twenty to fortyminutes. The first songs are usually upbeat praise choruses.' Theworship team will then lead a lively, hand-clapping, body-swaying,
hand-raising, (sometimes dancing) congregation into a potpourri ofindividualistic, gentle, worshipful singing. (Typically, the focus of thesongs is on individual spiritual experience. First person singular pro-nouns�I, me, my�dominate a good number of the songs." In somecontemporary churches, the trend is moving more toward corporate,first person plural lines�we, us, our. This is a wonderful shift.)
As the band leaves the stage, ushers pass the offering plates. Thisis usually followed by the sermon, and the pastor dominates the restof the service. In many churches, the pastor will call the worship teamto return to the stage to play a few more worshipful songs as he windsup his sermon. "Ministry time" may ensue as the band plays on.
The song liturgy just described works like clockwork in thetypical charismatic and nondenominational church. But where didit come from?
In 1962, a group of dissatisfied British church musicians in Dun-blane, Scotland, tried to revitalize traditional Christian songs. Ledby Congregational minister Erik Routley, these artists were influ-enced by Bob Dylan and Sydney Carter. George Shorney Jr. of HopePublishing Company brought their new style to the United States.These new Christian hymns were a reform, but not a revolution. Therevolution came when rock and roll was adapted into Christian musicwith the coming of the Jesus movement. This reform set the stage forthe revolutionary musical changes to take root in the Christian churchthrough Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard.53
The origin of the worship team goes back to the founding ofCalvary Chapel in 1965. Chuck Smith, the founder of the denomina-tion, started a ministry for hippies and surfers. Smith welcomed thenewly converted hippies to retune their guitars and play their nowredeemed music in church. He gave the counterculture a stage fortheir music�allowing them to play Sunday night performances and concerts. The new musical forms began to be called "praise and wor-ship."' As the Jesus movement began to flourish, Smith founded therecord company Maranatha Music in the early 1970s. Its goal was todistribute the songs of these young artists."
The Vineyard, under the influence of musical genius John Wim-ber, followed suit with the worship team. Wimber, a former CalvaryChapel pastor, became head of the Vineyard movement in 1982. Sincethat time, the Vineyard has probably had more influence on establish-ing worship teams and worship music than Calvary Chapel. Vineyardmusic is regarded as more intimate and worshipful, while CalvaryChapel's music is known for its upbeat, praise-oriented songs."
In due time, the guitar replaced the organ as the central instru-ment that led worship in the Protestant church. Although patternedafter the rock concert of secular culture, the worship team has becomeas common as the pulpit.
SO WHAT'S THE GRIPE?
Perhaps you are wondering, What's wrong with having a choir leader,a worship leader, or a worship team to lead the church's singing? Nothing. . . if every member of the church is content with it. However, manyChristians feel that it robs God's people of a vital function: to selectand lead their own singing in the meetings�to have divine worshipin their own hands�to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of Hischurch rather than have it led by a human facilitator. Singing in theearly church was marked by these very features.
Listen to Paul's description of a first-century church meeting:"Every one of you hath a psalm" (1 Corinthians 14:26). "Speak toone another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" (Ephesians 5:19,NIV). Consider the words "every one of you." Song leaders, choirs,and worship teams make this impossible by limiting the headship of Christ�specifically His ministry of leading His brethren into sing-ing praise songs to His Father. Of this ministry (which is little knowntoday), the writer of Hebrews says, "Both the one who makes menholy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus isnot ashamed to call them brothers. He says, 'I will declare your nameto my brothers; in the presence of the congregation [ekklesia] I willsing your praises" (Hebrews 2:11-12, NIV).
When worship songs can only be announced, initiated, and led bythe talented, this element of the service becomes more like entertain-ment than corporate worship." And only those who "make the cut"are allowed to participate in the ministry of leading songs. We wouldargue that according to New Testament principle, the ministry ofsinging belongs in the hands of all of God's people. And there shouldbe an outlet for this ministry to be expressed.
I (Frank) am no theoretician. For almost twenty years I havegathered with churches where every member has been trained to starta song spontaneously." Imagine: Every brother and sister free to leadsongs under the headship of Jesus Christ�even to write his or herown songs and bring them to the meeting for all to learn. I have metwith numerous churches that have experienced this glorious dynamic.Someone starts a song and everyone joins in. Then someone elsebegins another song, and so worship continues without long pausesand with no visible leader present.
This is exactly how the first-century Christians worshipped, bythe way. Yet it is a rare experience in the modern-day institutionalchurch. The good news is that it is possible and available for all whowish to experience Christ's headship through song in a church meet-ing. The singing in such churches is intensely corporate rather thanindividualistic and subjective."
"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in themidst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive requiredof us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying,Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD'S songin a strange land?" . . . "When the LORD turned again the captivityof Zion, we were like them that dream. Then was our mouth filledwith laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among theheathen, The Lord hath done great things for them" (Psalm 137:1-4;126:1-2).
>delving DEEPER
1.You expose the "pagan roots" of the church choir; yet I don't see why that in and of itself makesit less valuable. I don't have the gift of singing but appreciate that those who love music and aregifted in that area take the time and effort to prepare to lead me into worship through song. Yourthoughts?
We also appreciate those who are musically gifted and who can use their musicaltalents to bless others. However, to relegate the song selections in every churchgathering to a select few (i.e., a choir or worship team) disallows the rest of the bodyfrom participating in this ministry. This contradicts Scripture. As Paul says, "everyone of you hath a psalm" in the gathering (1 Corinthians 14:26).
2.Currently my pastor and the worship team leader choose music that corresponds with the morn-ing's message. I may not "connect" with every song chosen but don't see how that would be anydifferent if everyone present were invited to choose and lead a song.
If one has never seen a group of Christians choosing and leading their own songsspontaneously under Christ's headship, it is difficult to grasp what this would looklike. Suffice it to say that there is a world of difference between having a select groupof people pick the songs and having every believer participate in initiating songs.It is the difference between passively following one person (or a small group) andeveryone actively participating together spontaneously.
3. In the Old Testament period (see 1 Chronicles 23:5, 30; 25:1-31, 2 Chronicles 7:6), God instituted"professional" worship leaders among the Levitical families who led public worship and wrote
many of the Psalms (e.g., those by Asaph and the descendants of Korah). Do you think this providesa biblical basis for a valid music ministry? Why or why not?
We believe these passages actually support our point. The Old Testament priesthoodwas restricted to a select group of people�the Levites. In the New Covenant, thatselective priesthood has been done away with, and every Christian has been made apriest unto God. We are not part of the Levitical priesthood; we are priests after theorder of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5-7). Christ is our High Priest, and every believeris a priest under Him (1 Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 1:6). Therefore, to our minds, thesepassages show that every Christian has the right to participate in "leading worship"under Christ's headship.
PJ Posted No this person is not spirit filled, nor is the article according to the word a individual that is one that endeavors to know god by the mind would think so.
ME: Says the prosperity preaching acts 2:4 guy who just learned a new verse. Why don't you ACTUALLY TRY USING SOME OF THAT GOD COMMANDED SOBER MINDED INTENDED OF YOURS TO ACTUALLY LOOK INTO THIS STUFF TO SEE IF IT IS TRUE, PJ?
WALK INTO ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH service and you'll find it will usually begin with the singing of hymns, choruses, or praise and worship songs. One person (or a team of people) will both lead and direct the singing. In more traditional churches, it will be the choir director or the music minister. (In some churches, this role is even played by the senior pastor.) Or it may be handled by the choir itself. In con-temporary churches, it will be the worship leader or the praise and worship team.
There is no spirituality at all to that statement it is a statement made out of man's mind.
ME: show me WHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WHERE A SELECT FEW ARE TO DO THIS, PJ?
Eph 5:17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,
Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 5:21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
ME: DO you see a chosen few there or is that directed towards EVERYONE TO ADDRESS ONE ANOTHER IN PSALMS AND HYMNS AND SPIRITUAL SONGS, bro?
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Do you see Paul telling a certain choir leader or chosen band to do this or is ALL OF THE BELIEVERS AT THE GATHERING?
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
How many people actually come together with any of these that are NOT APPOINTED, PJ?
There is no doubt as to what was said and how it was said, any christian full of the word and the spirit would know that.
ME: Yup. And I'm not surprised that you didn't know or catch on to it.
We must read THE BOOK and not books or articles for revelation of God's Wisdom.
ME: We do, but we have to make sure that what is being taught now and what is being followed is in accordance with the Scriptures and be able to document WHERE AND WHEN THINGS CHANGED, bro. That is why we suddenly have Easter on a different day than the Jews do. Who do you think is responsible for that, bro? Research it cause you'll see that Constentine did it. The same guy that made his brand of Christianity legal. It is sort of like Herod keeping the temple priest's vestments so that he could control the way that they put on their clothes and go to him before they go do what God required. Man's control over the will of God.
We believe the word of men but doubt the WORD OF GOD.Nobody knows God but the Spirit of God.
ME: And yet we all have the mind of Christ. How do you reconcile the fact that the Word shows one thing and we practice another?
We will find God when we search for Him with all your heart, body and Soul not by others helping us to search for Him.
ME: So are you doing this, bro, or are you just giving lip service to the article without actually doing any homework?
Way ahead of you Agapeton, that context does not apply to those that have rejected the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Unless one is Baptized with the Holy Ghost, they will not have any light on that topic.
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MINISTERS OF MUSIC: CLERGY SET TO MUSIC
Posted : 14 Feb, 2012 03:28 PM
PJ Posted No this person is not spirit filled, nor is the article according to the word a individual that is one that endeavors to know god by the mind would think so.
ME: Says the prosperity preaching acts 2:4 guy who just learned a new verse. Why don't you ACTUALLY TRY USING SOME OF THAT GOD COMMANDED SOBER MINDED INTENDED OF YOURS TO ACTUALLY LOOK INTO THIS STUFF TO SEE IF IT IS TRUE, PJ?
WALK INTO ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH service and you'll find it will usually begin with the singing of hymns, choruses, or praise and worship songs. One person (or a team of people) will both lead and direct the singing. In more traditional churches, it will be the choir director or the music minister. (In some churches, this role is even played by the senior pastor.) Or it may be handled by the choir itself. In con-temporary churches, it will be the worship leader or the praise and worship team.
There is no spirituality at all to that statement it is a statement made out of man's mind.
ME: show me WHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT WHERE A SELECT FEW ARE TO DO THIS, PJ?
Eph 5:17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
Eph 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,
Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,
Eph 5:20 giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 5:21 submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
ME: DO you see a chosen few there or is that directed towards EVERYONE TO ADDRESS ONE ANOTHER IN PSALMS AND HYMNS AND SPIRITUAL SONGS, bro?
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Do you see Paul telling a certain choir leader or chosen band to do this or is ALL OF THE BELIEVERS AT THE GATHERING?
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
How many people actually come together with any of these that are NOT APPOINTED, PJ?
There is no doubt as to what was said and how it was said, any christian full of the word and the spirit would know that.
ME: Yup. And I'm not surprised that you didn't know or catch on to it.
I am in a chruch where this is always happening but it is by the spirit of prophecy, carnal christians do not walk in these scriptures.
Maybe if the person who wrtoe this article, and those who believe in what the article states, if they attended church services regularly, they would find that the praise and worship teams have nothing to do with a person having a right to lead the congregation in songs. Its just a form of ORDER in the sanctuary!
ME: Honey, seeing that you are a woman "pastor" and Scripture supports no such thing, can you honestly find me ANY HINT OR A SUGGESTION OF A THOUGHT WHERE A SELECT FEW ARE TO CHOOSE SONGS EVERY WEEK AND LEAD OTHERS TO SING THEM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES before you can outright ASSUME what the article writer does, sister?
How dare anyone to say or think that ORDER and LEADERSHIP in God's house is not biblical. But then if the person DOES NOT ATTEND an orginized church service of ORDER as Paul teaches, then that person would not know the truth from a lie that feels good.
ME: Yeah. How DARE ANYONE DEFY THE ORDERS OF PAUL AND MAKE WOMEN TEACH IN THE HOUSE OF GOD AND THEN EXPECT TO KNOW WHAT ORDER IS AND EXPECT OTHERS TO KNOW THEIR TRUTH?
And to say or think that instruments are not to be used for the glory of God this too, is another lie of the devil.
But Does it really matter if instruments are used in praise and worship? Does it really matter if there is a praise team for worship? We are told LET EVERYTHING THAT HAS BREATH PRAISE THE LORD!
ME: Are you actually reading anything other than what you typed, sister?
I don't think I will touch the rest after those statements you made...
BTW,Altogether there are over 60 Old Testament verses refer favorably to worshiping God by using instruments.
So what's the problem??? God's wrd says there will be musical instruments in heaven.. f the harp isn't a musical instrument, then prey tell what it is that the saints God, He has chosen will be playing???
Revelation 14. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
ME: Honey, don't change the subject here ok. It's not the instruments that is the issue. Focus, sister. Focus on the appointed structure that is evident in the way we practice and the DIFFERENCE FROM THE Scriptures that PAUL PRESENTS US NOW...
Agapeton said: The individual who wrote this article is Spirit filled, PJ. He has been planting churches for over 20 years now. He actually researched this according to the Word and our practices. What have you done outside of doubting?
Ella ask: Agapeton, who is this individual who wrote this article? There is no name assigned to him/her. Also, would you know what faith and where has he planted churches?
ME: ET, I left it out on purpose so that you don't get all pharisitical and ASK FOR THE CREDENTIALS OF THE PERSON PRESENTING THE MESSAGE. Be a Berean and RESEARCH THE INFORMATION IN THE ARTICLE FOR YOURSELF AND USE THE GOD GIVEN TOOLS THAT THE LORD GOD HAS ENDOWED YOU WITH BY HIS SPIRIT.
Remember the discernment article I posted? Take some notes from them and apply them, sister.
I don't waste my time studying the doctrine of men, but the Word of God.
And yet, you deny the very verses that show that EVERYONE IS INVOLVED IN COMING UP WITH SINGING AND ACCEPT A MAN'S DOCTRINE OVER THE WORD OF GOD. K. That is essentially what the Pharisee did.
The Pharisees knew a lot but couldn't recognized Christ walking among them, they plotted and killed Him
ME: And yet they did what the Scriptures said would happen. God is in control and Jesus rebuked them for following the traditions of men instead of what He wanted. They loved to power and plotted to kill Jesus because they knew that they would no longer "control" how every believer should WORSHIP God in a certain way.
If any of us lack Wisdom let him ask God, not follow the intelligence and doctrine of men.
ME: And if God reveals it to you in the form of a book written by a few chosen intelligent men would you look into it?
God reveals himself to us personally, not through books, magazines ot articles on the internent, those are other people revelations.
ME: How do you personally know God, bro? Which thing out of what you mentioned showed you who Christ is and is the standard for everything that these things are founded upon? Did it have letters in it?
Maybe we should start cooking our own food, instead of eating freely from others tables.
ME: I see. So you are basically saying to eat what is fed to you and don't bother to look at the ingredients of the things that this server is feeding you. OK. Got ya.
MY LAST RESPONSE ON THIS THREAD.
ME: Shame, bro. How will we ever learn if we never discuss?
Way ahead of you Agapeton, that context does not apply to those that have rejected the gift of the Holy Ghost.
ME: Actually, you are still behind, bro. You've yet to prove anything you believe other than evade the issues and then make nonsensical claims to a believer who can only claim that Jesus is Lord by the Spirit of God like a good pharisee.
I am in a chruch where this is always happening but it is by the spirit of prophecy, carnal christians do not walk in these scriptures.
ME: I see. So in essence you are reluctant to answer the question because you know that they will not align with the truth of what God ordained through Paul. K. Thanks for playing.
AgapetonME: Honey, don't change the subject here ok. It's not the instruments that is the issue. Focus, sister. Focus on the appointed structure that is evident in the way we practice and the DIFFERENCE FROM THE Scriptures that PAUL PRESENTS US NOW...
Ella: Agaepton: What does all this mean? Explain your above statement and make it clear as to what you're talking about here as it relates to the article on musicial insturments in the church and prasie teams and leading of songs, and what I posted as you see the " evident in the way we practice and the DIFFERENCE FROM THE Scriptures that PAUL PRESENTS US"... just what is the evidence and difference Paul presents to us in scripture.
