I want to have a discussion on freewill. How come Jonah didn't have a choice on going to Ninevah to preach? Some might say that it was his destiny to go and preach. Then my question is: did He have a free will? This question is just to start a discussion.
First, Calvinism does not teach that we have no control over our lives, that is Hyper-Calvinism. Calvin taught that the sovereignty of God overrides the will of man. He wrote that God chooses us. I am not a big fan because of where it usually leads with new believers.
However there are instances in the Bible that cannot be explained any other way, case in point, Pharaoh. The Bible clearly states that God hardened his heart to keep him from letting the Israelites go. It goes on to say that this was his whole reason for being born.
As for the rest of what you wrote, I agree. We have a choice in almost everything in life. The exception is, if it interferes with God's sovereignty.
Actually Calvinism, if followed to it's logical conclusion leads to Hyper-Calvinism in my opinion.
Concerning Pharaoh it is interesting to note that at the beginning it was Pharaoh that hardened his own heart a couple of times before God finally hardened it.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
Exo 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
Exo 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Exo 10:1 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,
Exo 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exo 11:10 So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exo 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness.
While it is true that ...
.Exo 9:16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. NKJV
God does exercise His sovereign will in unique circumstances but I believe when it comes to our Salvation and most other things He gives us Free Will to choose.
Here is a good article among many that deal with this and the historical evidence.
I agree that God has to exercise His sovereign will only occasionally. I do believe that we have a choice in most things, especially when it comes to accepting Christ.
I also agree that Calvinism can easily turn into Hyper-Calvinism, but don't agree that it is the natural progression. I think, like most in depth study, people get caught up in one aspect of our faith to the exclusion of all else. While it would be nice to say, I am not responsible because it was preordained, I do not believe that a Holy God would destine someone for evil without a grand purpose, such as Pharaoh.
I think we all have a purpose in the grand scheme of things, and that we have no choice when it comes to the fulfillment of God's plan. I do believe that we have a choice in most things, as I stated above, but I think if God wants you to tie a donkey, you will tie a donkey.
Just wanted to add, that just because I don't agree with everything you write, doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it. It is always a pleasure to discuss the word with someone that is informed. I truly respect your opinions.
Are you a Pastor? I ask, because of your scripture choices and the fact that you go to the trouble of writing the entire scripture. That is one of the differences in Pastors and Evangelists. Pastors are usually talking to believers, and they like the comfort of the scriptures, while Evangelists usually are trying to present Biblical views in easily understood words. Anyway, I was just curious.
I read the post, Walter, and I'm giving it thought. First, I wanted to thank you for taking the time, writing the scriptures, and trying to explain this subject to me. You are right, God caused circumstances in my life to acknowledge Him, however, if I did not acknowledge Him, then that might have been the last thing I did in my life--was not acknowledge Him as God.
It puzzles me though about Jonah and for example. Jonah had to obey God or suffer His wrath for not obeying God. On the other hand though, Cain had a choice, He could have chose not to let the sin in, instead of acting on his desires. Maybe our will is centered around His will, meaning, it is based on obeying Him or not.
Thank you for your encouraging words. I also appreciate all you have to say whether we agree or not. In the end one day we will all have it right and probably give each other a loving smack across the head and say..."see.... I told you so". LOL
No I am not a Pastor yet and that is in the Lord's hands but I have been mentored/ discipled by some good people especially a very good friend of mine who has now become the Pastor of my Church. One of the main things I was reminded of is to use my former Police training and question everyone and everything and take nothing for granted and examine the evidence carefully and then if something doesn't fit, then my conclusion may need some tweaking. The study of Hermeneutics has also helped tremendously not to mention studying Greek. It is tough but well worth it. I have a GREAT deal to go in that.
You know I wish this site allowed for larger fonts, bold, Italics and color changes as it would enhance our discussions. But it is a free site so I guess we should be thankful for that. Maybe we can request this to them and see what they say.
Regarding Jonah. He made his choice and suffered the consequences for it. We all do. I have to keep this short for tonight as I have to get to bed. Let's exaime Romans 1.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although THEY KNEW GOD, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man�and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God also GAVE THEM UP to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God GAVE THEM UP to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
Rom 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. NKJV
What did you see in this passage, particularly where I caped the words?
What was it that stood out concerning God's will and their will?
In your original post, you were confusing the philosophical question of free will with mere choice. When God reveals His will to us (such as I Thess. 4:3, not to fornicate), this is not something that we are allowed to go against (in terms of pleasing God). But we do have the ability to disobey God, as Jonah did--he had the free will to do so. God does not promise when we disobey, we will have a lovely time doing so...in fact, I think we find in our lives that the opposite is true. I'm wondering why you would question Jonah's free will...maybe because God ultimately had him go where He had originally instructed? But Jonah repented (Jonah 2) and did this of his own volition. So I agree with the others that Pharaoh or Judas are better examples for the questions you are asking. I would love to talk more in depth with you about these things.
I think it is important to demonstrate the other side of the spectrum from Walter on this topic.
I am not coming from a Calvinistic viewpoint, although I'm sure Walter may see similarities there. I think any time you systematize doctrine, you are going to sacrifice truth, because systematization is trying to make complete logical sense out of partial information (because we are fallible, and because not all answers have been given). Thus, it has been said, "Dogma is the sacrifice of wisdom to consistency".
With that established, I can see many places where Walter's allegiance to Arminianism has already led him astray from Scriptures. Let's take a quick look at some of the things he has said. And brother Walter, I do love you, and this is only for the sake of all growing together--not to cut you down personally at all. I trust that you love the Lord as much as we all do, and that we all want to see the truth in all this.
First, we have to define "free will". Most of us just think of it to mean a true choice. But "free will", as defined in philosophy and theology, means a will that extends outside the realm of God's sovereignty (in theology) or a pre-determined outcome (in philosophy, a.k.a. fate). So when Walter is combating Calvinism, he's fighting against the notion that any choice of ours is within the umbrella of God's sovereignty, that no matter what we think we are doing, God is really in control. Walter says that this is not true, and we make our choices completely on our own, and they CAN go against what God would truly want.
This is such a difficult topic to explain, but I would agree with Walter to a certain extent, but not to the extent to which he is currently committed.
The first verse Walter quotes is 2 Peter 3:9. This is a poor choice for the point he is making, and I'll say that I think he can make his point biblically, but with other verses, not this one. He is trying to say that God says He desires one thing, and man is free to do another. You can use I Tim. 2:4 for this, or even John 3:16. But 2 Peter 3:9 is a bad example because of the phrase "towards us" (believers being the context). God's promise to save those He has chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) will be fulfilled, and none of them will perish before He saves them (just like what Jesus said, that none would be lost except the son of perdition).
By the way, I know Walter's arguments against Eph. 1:4, but the biggest obstacle is going to be the very clear context which teaches that the basis of His choosing was not passive foreknowledge (looking ahead to see who would choose Him in the future), but "according to the good pleasure of His will" (vs. 5), "according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself" (vs. 9), and we were predestined in verse 11 "according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will", and all of this, to the praise of His glory (vv. 6, 12).
In another message by Walter, he claims,
"Concerning Pharaoh it is interesting to note that at the beginning it was Pharaoh that hardened his own heart a couple of times before God finally hardened it."
This again works against his view, because it is not true! I remember back at Bible college studying these verses, and something I discovered from my own reading was that the first two instances of Pharaoh's heart being hardened were Exodus 4:21 and Exodus 7:3. Walter starts with Exodus chapter 8. I don't believe that Walter would sinfully neglect Ex. 4 and 7, I just believe he was probably taught by a fellow Arminian that Pharaoh was said to harden his own heart first, and he recorded the verses that the teacher said to record. In any event, what did NOT happen was reading the text itself, because it reads:
4:21: When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
7:2,3: You shall speak all that I command you, and Aaron your brother shall tell Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
My professor, who was more Arminian, also taught me that in the Bible, Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. When I went to read the text itself, I found that this could not be true exegetically because of the above verses. Therefore, my professor, and Walter here, have theological systems that require that they believe this way--but let's all be clear--it is not from the context that they derive this view!
Romans 9 sheds more light on Pharaoh. Romans 9:14ff are some of the most powerful verses in the Bible on God's sovereignty over man's will (not that I am teaching that God is sovereign in such a way that man does not have a will that can choose--this has to be explicated upon carefully).
In verse 15, God says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs (sounds a lot like John 1:13!), but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this purpose I raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
These verses go against Walter's theory that man is completely in his own world of choice apart from God's sovereignty in terms of choosing God. In fact, John 1:13 and these verses in Romans 9 actually teach that it is NOT man's will which saves him, but being born of God, being one that God has opened in mind to seeing the truth (like Lydia in Acts 16:14).
Looking earlier at Romans 9, it is powerful where God says that his love for Jacob and hatred for Esau was NOT based on which would do good or evil (because neither was born when He decided it, and had not done anything good or evil, vs. 11), nor was it because God knew what would happen in the future, that one would please Him and another would not please Him (because verse 11 says "not of works", again similar to John 1:13), but the reason given is: "that the purpose of God according to election might stand".
I've taken some time to demonstrate some places where Walter has gone astray, but I haven't spoken positively to the actual topic of "free will".
The Bible does not teach that ANYTHING, including man's will, is outside of the control of God's sovereignty (Ps. 103:19, "His sovereignty rules over all"). There are countless verses that teach the dominion of God's sovereignty. I'll list a few for reference...Is. 14:24-27, Daniel 4:35:
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of hvn, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, what doest thou?",
Is. 63:17, Ps. 135:6, Ps. 115:3, Proverbs 16:4, Amos 3:6, Acts 13:48, John 12:37-40, Is. 26:12, Is. 43:11-13 "Indeed, before the day was, I am He; and there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?",
Is. 46:
"...Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of Israel, who have been upheld by Me from birth, who have been carried from the womb: Even to your old age, I am He, and even to gray hairs I will carry you! I have made, and I will bear, Even I will carry, and I will deliver you. To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal and compare Me, that we should be alike? (next few verses show that man can't save himself out of trouble) ... Remember this, and show yourselves men; recall to mind, O you transgressors. Remember the things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure', Calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes my counsel, from a far country. Indeed, I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it, I will also do it..."
There are hundreds of other verses like this. I have a Bible dedicated to highlighting these passages (but it's not on me)!
One thing we can conclude is that God's sovereign plan cannot be thwarted. This needs to be firmly established before embracing the topic of man's will. And God is not one who is only sovereign some of the time--this is a character trait, not an action that gets implemented. Just like God is all-knowing-He does not implement His knowledge; He just knows everything. It is a state of being.
Finally, what then of the question of man's will? Is man's will free outside of God's sovereignty? No. There are ample verses to establish this, many of which I have quoted. However, from man's perspective, his will is completely free! This is an important concept! No one walks around knowing what God is doing in his heart. When I got saved, I saw the Creator God and wanted to obey Him. I was aware of the truth, and I believed it. I made my own choice. I only learned later that it was God working in me to believe, because on my own, I cannot seek God (Romans 3:9-20, Eph. 2:1-9, etc.). So we can look at my own salvation like John 1:12-13. I received Him in my heart, believing the gospel, and so God gave me the right to be called a son of God, but my salvation was not born from my own will, but actually, from the will of God. What 1:13 addresses is the origin of our faith. It does not originate in us, we who can do no good in ourselves. It originates from God (For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it (the whole salvation package, including faith!) is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8-9). Acts 13:48 is powerful to this point, Acts 16:14 also, etc. Philippians 1:29 says that it was not only appointed for us to believe (our faith is a gift!), but also to suffer for His sake. 2 Tim. 2:25 says that God grants repentance. 2 Tim. 1:9, Eph. 1, etc. that God has chosen us by His choice first, apart from our own will.
So in any person's salvation experience, all they understand and feel that they experience is that they decide to believe. This is wonderful how God has made it, that faith feels to us as if it originates from us, and as much as it depends upon our impression, it does come from us in that sense. But the origin of saving faith is God's divine will, which is why we cannot boast about the good work of having faith. God has made it such that we do make a real choice of our own volition, yet God is sovereignly in control.
There is a point where we can't reconcile exactly how God can be completely sovereign, yet we really make a true choice. Where that point is, most people disagree. But it is important to accept what is clearly taught in Scripture, which is that God is sovereign, and man does make his own choices from his own perspective. This is why man is responsible. For Walter's arguments to be valid, man would have to KNOW and FEEL God's sovereignty in his life for him to not really be making his own choices. If God's sovereignty coincides with man's will in such a way that all man experiences is his own freedom, then man truly has a choice (from his own perspective). But no one, in the final analysis, can commit any act (even a choice in his mind) apart from God's sovereignty--this is why we see God even impose on man's heart deliberately (Deut. 2:30, God hardened Sihon's spirit and made his heart obstinate, John 12:37-40 where God blinds man's eyes and hardens his heart so that they cannot believe (!), Matt. 11:25-27 where God has hidden salvation from the "wise and intelligent" of the world and revealed it to infants, etc.
An important explanation must be placed here...whenever God hardens a person's heart, whenever God blinds someone's eyes, I do believe that it coincides with their own rebellious heart, their own self-hardening, as it were. I AGREE with Walter that Romans 1 should be mentioned as man goes his own way and then, after that, God "gives man over" to his own desires. It may shock you that after all of this writing, I agree that Pharaoh hardened himself before God hardened him, theologically, because of Romans 1 and how we must understand that God would never take a humble, obedient heart and turn it against Himself (as God has said, a divided house cannot stand). So theologically, I agree with Walter that this hardening and blinding God does only to people who have already headed down the path of Romans 1 of their own volition, or at least in conjunction with those who are or would have. But textually, exegetically, we must take Scripture for what it says and not extend past its own explanations.
When we choose the Romans 1 path, it is our fault. And as D.A. Carson so aptly put it, when we do good, it is God's glory (He has done it, just like Is. 26:12, which is this amazing verse that says that even the good works that we do, God has done it in us to do it ourselves, if that makes sense...amazing. The deeds we do from our own flesh, and not from Him, are as filthy rags, cf. Is. 64:6).
What then of verses like I Tim. 2:4, or when we go against I Thess. 4:3 (it's not God's will for Christians to have premarital sex, but many do)?
God's revealed will, that is, what He tells us He wants us to do, is different than His sovereign will. As we have seen from the verses I've shown, God's sovereign will is always accomplished. But God's revealed will is not always accomplished because we are free to disobey. God rarely says in the Bible, "This is what I'm going to do", but when He says that, it has ALWAYS happened. When God says, "This is what I want you to do", He is clearly giving us an instruction that is our choice. Both may use the verbiage, "This is my will", but it is not the same will when He says He will do something, and when He asks us to do something. Get it? Just because the Bible may use the same phrase doesn't mean it has the exact same meaning or directive.
It is a glorious thing to be free in heart to read the Bible for what it says, and not to feel obliged to a certain system. I would encourage this discussion to go further...and whenever competing sides are presented, look at the Scriptures themselves and simply choose to believe what they say. Don't get caught up in clever arguments or explanations away from the text! If you commit to the Scriptures only, God will show you the truth. Seek, and you will find.
IMO some of us do not have free will. Many are called but few are chosen. Those who are chosen are predestined. The Word refers to those who are chosen as the "elect". Our Father knew the hearts of the elect from "the world that then was" or the 1st earth age, spoken of in 2nd Peter. In case you haven't studied this, that was the age before the cabal, Satan's first rebellion, where 1/3 of the angels, 1/3 of the souls and 1/3 of creation followed Satan. For every negative there is a positive in scripture so 1/3 of the souls were faithful to God. These became the Zadoc, the Elect. It doesn't make them any better than anyone else, it's just that God knows He can count on them and has specific tasks for them in these end times. They are the Holy Remnant He has reserved for His purpose. The Zadoc have an inherant knowledge of the scriptures and need only minimal study to "recall" it to present memory. Read Jeremiah where God said, "I wont to call some things to your rememberance". This implies Jerimiah already had a knowledge of scripture. God moves forcefully and powerfully in and through His elect. Before you start telling me that the 3 earth ages (the world that was, the world that is now and the world to come)are nonsense I will tell you I won't dignify any such post with a response. If you would like me to cite scripture I will be happy toassist in your study. It may take me a while, I have limited time due to caring for my little girl. Study, pray and seek the kingdom. In Christ, Gary
