According to the Jewish Tanakh (where everything about a Moshiach comes from,) the Moshiach MUST be a literal human descendent from King David. "The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24)" from pt 1.Thus, he cannot be God incarnate.
Conversely, if Yeshua IS God incarnate then He cannot also be the Moshiach.
How do Christians and/or Christianity rectify this problem?
But since Christianity depends 100% on Judaism being true,
*** Actually Christianity depends 100% on Faith in Yashua/Jesus being the Way...the Truth and the Life...no where in the Bible does it say Christians depend on Judaism�and you are right..it does not matter to me what you claim you are...what does matter to you is that you only live within the Box of OT and Struggle to Find an Answer and Truth that you will not Accept as Truth...which means you are following what ? Judaisim ? or Kenotics ?...Essennes ?�There is nothing wrong with asking questions to better enlighten the Soul and Mind...So when the Box is Opened...what do you find ? Is it Empty or is it Full ?...Is it Empty of Condemnation and Burden of Sin and Death, Leagalisim and a 6 pointed Star ? or is it Full of Life Eternal with the LORD and Saviour ?...xo
What I am shouldn't matter. As it happens, I'm a pre-Talmudic tradition Jew (Scripturalist Judaism et al. we use the Tanakh alone as revelation of God's will, not the latter Talmud or other 'commentaries'). But since Christianity depends 100% on Judaism being true, I don't see a conflict with my being here or asking these questions. My intent is not to argue 'was he, or wasn't he?' but rather to be convinced as you have been that he was.
Actually almost everyone on this Bible Forum are evangelical Christians and we believe that the OT and NT are both inspired by God and we also believe that the Tanakh is not inspired by God. We also believe with all our hearts that Jesus is the Divine Son of God and the Jewish Messiah who can now save people in every nation tribe and language who put their trust in His atonement for their sins and who love the Father and His Son {Yeshua HaMoshiach}by obeying all the Words of their New Covenant with the hope of countless eternal rewards for loving and faithful service.
What is the purpose of your threads?? Do you want to make fun of Christians and the NT or do you really want to know what we believe?? Or do you want to convert us to accept the Tanakh as inspired by God??
I understand WHAT you believe, I'm interested in WHY. Why do you profess to believe something the creators of the concept don't (i.e. that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.) The Jewish texts as I detailed in pt 1 spell out quite explicitly information about the Messiah. When you compare those passages with Jesus and the Canon and non-Canonical texts it's becomes perfectly clear Jesus didn't meet those qualifications. Saying he was the Messiah, and it's a matter of faith is a cop-out. If you can't defend the assertion, that's fine, still 2 billion minus 1 other Christians out there to ask about it.
An obvious flaw wouldn't endure this long. So obviously someone has a fix for the contradictions. I want that fix.
If you were a missionary in Israel then you're a criminal as that's illegal there. Jews don't proselytize or even encourage converts as God said not to.
Believing in the OT but not the Tanakh tells me everything I need to know though so thanks for that. We're done.
:applause:...An obvious flaw wouldn't endure this long....:applause:...Thats because Yashua/Jesus is not Flawed...Man and His Traditions of Man are....:purpleangel:...xo
� The idea of mashiach (messiah) is an ancient one in Judaism
� The Jewish idea of mashiach is a great human leader like King David, not a savior
� There is much speculation about when the mashiach will come
� The Bible identifies several tasks that the mashiach will accomplish
� Jews do not believe in Jesus because he did not accomplish these tasks
I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the mashiach, and though he may tarry, still I await him every day.
- Principle 12 of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith
The Messianic Idea in Judaism
Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.
Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "mashiach" will be used throughout this page.
Some gentiles have told me that the term "mashiach" is related to the Hebrew term "moshiah" (savior) because they sound similar, but the similarity is not as strong as it appears to one unfamiliar with Hebrew. The Hebrew word "mashiach" comes from the root Mem-Shin-Chet, which means to paint, smear, or annoint. The word "moshiah" comes from the root Yod-Shin-Ayin, which means to help or save. The only letter these roots have in common is Shin, the most common letter in the Hebrew language. The "m" sound at the beginning of the word moshiah (savior) is a common prefix used to turn a verb into a noun. For example, the verb tzavah (to command) becomes mitzvah (commandment). Saying that "mashiach" is related to "moshiah" is a bit like saying that ring is related to surfing because they both end in "ing."
The Mashiach
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.
When Will the Mashiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the mashiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the mashiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the mashiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the mashiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the mashiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the mashiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the mashiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the mashiach will come:
if Israel repented a single day;
if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
in a generation that loses hope;
in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;
What Will the Mashiach Do?
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.
Some gentiles have tried to put an ugly spin on this theology, claiming that Jews plan to force people to convert to our religion, perhaps based on their own religion's history of doing exactly the same thing. That is not at all how Jews understand the messianic age. We believe that in that future time, everyone will simply know what the truth is, in the same way that we know that 2+2=4, and there will no longer be any reason to argue about it. It is much like a situation I witnessed at work once: two computer programmers were arguing loudly and at length about whether it was possible for a user to input data at a certain point in a program. Finally someone pressed a key and they all saw that nothing happened. Now they knew the truth, end of argument. When mashiach comes, theological truths will be equally obvious to mankind, and there will be no reason to argue about it.
What About Jesus?
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.
Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the mashiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the mashiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the mashiach; therefore, none of them were the mashiach. The mashiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Mashiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see the Jews for Judaism website, especially the Knowledge Base under Resources. The Knowledge Base addresses more than 130 of the most common arguments that evangelists make to Jews.
All I can say Jeff is that God will see to it that you are saved on the day our Lord Jesus Christ returns... all you must do is repent of your sins, and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God, and that He died on the cross for your sin, and confess withy our mouth that He is Lord and Savior and the Only true Messiah that is and ever shall be, and is to come.
Jesus Christ the anointed one came over two thousand years ago, and the jew rejected Him, and He is soon returning and many Jews are still rejecting Him, but God has promised that there is a remnant of Jew who will believe and receive the Christ that is to come, ain't no other coming but JESUS IMMANUEL who will and can save you from hell, His name is the Lord Jesus Christ, the son of David and seed of Abraham... God Himself incarnated, and He accomplished everything that He had set out to accomplish when He died on the cross for the remission fo you and all the sins of the worl... once for all, and all for once.
Matter not hat yu call Him in the Greek, Hebrew, German, Russian, or English or any language you wish, His name is the ONLY name by wich man can be saved under heaven.
Love ya much, and I know God Himself is going to deal withy ou so that you might be converted to know and come into a ersonal relationship with the Savior of all, Jesus the Chrust, the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.YHWH/Masiah. And I call Him JESUS THE CHRIST!
I think if you would spend some time reading the book of Isaiah, you will find many answers to your questions.
Try reading Isaiah chapter 9, chapter 11, chapter 42, and chapter 53, and you will see that Jesus Christ is the Savior and ONLY Messiah of the Jews and Gentiles, ALL PEOPLES OF THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD!:glow:
May God Himself open your eyes of understanding to receive and believe on His Son Jesus The Christ the ONLY Anointed One! Amen.:hearts:
God promised Israel all of the land from the Great River of Egypt to the Euphrates River. That has yet to happen in history! Therefore, the covenants must not exist right. Because that part of the covenant has not happened. There are parts of the Abrahamic, Davidic and Jeramaic Covenants that have yet to be fulfilled. Yet other parts of those covenants have happened. However, do the Jews say they are done away because not all of the promises have been fulfilled? The covenants do not exist because not all promises have happened?
So then why would the Jews reject Christ on the basis that some of the Messianic prophecies have not be fulfilled yet we can establish that over 300 have been fulfilled by Jesus Christ?
One thing we do know is, that God isn't going to bring about His prophecies just to justifiy or appeases anyone's faith or belief or unbelief. When He setforth the time for His word to be fulfilled it shall be done at His appointed time, whether the person believes r doesn't believe... wheter the person can see what has already taken place or not.
And Just because some Jews have not seen all of God's prophecies fulfilled, that is not His problem, that's their faith problem. God took over 25 years before He blessed Abraham with the son of promise Isaac, and look at how many years before He delivered the Israelites from under the oppression and slavery in Egypt under Pharaoh... and then allowed them to wonder in the wilderness for over 40 years,becasue of their disboedience when it was only a two or three days journey to the promise land. And look at how many years past before the coming birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ after the prophesy was given between the time Isaiah gave it out and it came to pass. Malachi and Matthew, and look how long it took for them to record the word of truth.
So, God is not in a hurry for no one, just to prove Himself OR His word... If a person doesn't have the faith to believe and take hold of what has already come to pass, then this person has a personal spiritual problem in knowing who God really is, and it really doesn't matter if the person is a Jew or Gentile.
You rither believe or you don't, its just that plain and simple!
And all the counsel and exhortation I can offer is, that May God HImself help thou unbelief!...whoever the person may be:prayingf::glow:
