I'm not sure what a Reformed Pastor teaches his congregation when it comes to unconditional election, as I've never sat under one of such teaching. I have spent some time going over the beliefs of Reformed Theology, more specifically the tenets [TULIP], and that which I read in this forum by our Resident Calvinist. But I got to thinking... what if I were not a Christian? What if I was an unbeliever, curious or searching for some truth and came upon this TULIP teaching and noted that I was created either for eternal life or eternal damnation, and no matter how I felt about it, or what I did, I had no choice but to be one or the other? As a Believer who does not agree with this Theology, there is no way I could fairly answer that question. So, I waited for an opportunity to ask an unbelieving coworker. I asked only one question and the short of the conversation was this -
Me - "What if I told you that you were created to be either eternally saved and going to Heaven or eternally condemned and going to Hell and that there was nothing you could do about it. Your fate, as it were, was sealed long before you were created. What would you think?"
Coworker - "Then it really doesn't matter how I live, does it?"
How true this is. If one is created condemned, it doesn't matter how he lives. He's received his death sentence long before he was ever created and performed his first sin in the flesh, and nothing he does can or will change that. He will give no thought to eternal consequence for it doesn't matter. On the flip side is the one that is created for eternal life unconditionally and not based on how he lives, what sins he has committed, how often, or for how long, and he too can live how he wishes because he has been chosen long before he was created to eternal life and there was or is nothing he can do about it. He's saved. It doesn't matter how he lives. And while either may not know to which they were created, both can live in their current sinful lives until which time the condemned dies and goes to Hell and the unconditionally elect is forced to believe and is Heaven bound.
Now you may think this was an unfair way to approach a person or present Reformed Theology, because after all you do preach Christ' death and salvation to those who believe, but I did not bring up where this theology comes from, nor any other belief system. My concern was the reaction and what a person would think if they came upon the TULIP teachings and that of Unconditional Election.
It's a dangerous thing for an unbeliever to say it doesn't matter how they live when it comes to eternity and be absolutely correct when it comes to Reformed Theology.
Proprhetic, the problem is simply this a lie presented as the truth, that is reformed theology, and when anyone even imply's there is any life in a lie is on breaking there is no life in that religious opinion, or Doctrine of Demons.
Life does not come from death as satan is parading with this theology.
James, If there were no way to seek the Lord, the following passages would not have been written.
Acts 17:24-27 - God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Zephaniah 2:3 - Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
Isaiah 55:6-7 - Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
3:6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Verse three tells us who is those are spoken in every following verse and that is those that do not believe, why would anyone that is a christian be still and accept the lie that reformation theology that is inferred when they quote these verses as they do all the verses of scripture they do not believe.
You have to be blind and deaf to say there are those that are not called righteous in the old testament ,but they are also call righteous for doing the very things that reformation theology says they can not do.
You have to be blind and deaf to say that you don't see men and women seeking God in the old testament.
It is equally wrong for those that try to correct this theology, to even imply those pushing this false teaching are in the family of God.
"Because these people believe just enough about what a "God" ought to be, they realize this doctrine is a attack on the 'Nature of God'"
James replies:
You mean the Character of God, or that it makes God out to be evil.
I have said you believed this for a long time, and so thanks for finally admitting it. When you just say what you think, it saves times, because then you can deal directly with the problem.
Well Two, I guess finally exposed your gross unbelief.
James, the word says don't you walk in the light when you walk in darkness.
1st Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 � If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
