Author	Thread: "Totally Depraved" From Birth?
Admin	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 09:24 AM After having asked James in another thread how Reformed Theology views children in regards to salvation [to which he hasn't answered yet], I got to thinking.... are we really "totally depraved" when we are born? Did God form us in the womb as evil and sinful creatures, totally depraved in the womb, of which state we remain until at such time we learn whether we are of the creation of elect or created to be damned? Is this really a sound doctrine? Or can we say instead that we are born with a sinful nature that will at some point in life realize the need for a Saviour, or choose to continue to love our sinful lives and reject Christ instead? David wrote in Psalm 127:3, "Lo, children [are] an heritage of the LORD: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward." So children are a gift from the Lord. The fruit of the womb is His reward. Does God give 'evil' gifts? Nope. James tells us in 1:17 that, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." What does that say about children being a gift from the Lord? Does God create the totally depraved and evil soul of every child born, as a good gift and reward? As a mother, I would have to say no. Not once did it enter my mind when my children were born that they were evil, totally depraved, beings, created and born that way. They were wonderfully created, beginning life in innocence to good and evil, having the knowledge of neither. We read in Deuteronomy 1:39, "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." There is a verse, Romans 9:11, that RT's use in 'proving' that God can hate, but in this case we see again that children, even from before birth, have no knowledge of good and evil; "(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)" If, as RT's demand, we are totally depraved from birth [or eternity], and Scripture tells us that children and those in the womb have no knowledge of good and evil, how can they begin life as evil, corrupt and totally depraved beings, knowing nothing but evil, and continue as such until they are visibly elect or burning in hell through no will of their own? Furthermore, let's see what Jesus said about children in Matthew 18:1-6... At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Children have such admirable qualities of trust, humility, and compassion. And Jesus encourages us to become like them. If they were born as totally depraved, corrupt little evil beings, do you really Jesus would encourage us to become like them? And what does Jesus mean when He says, "whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea."? Isn't He talking about causing a child to sin? He finds this so offensive that it would be better one drown in the bottom of the ocean. So again, my question is - are we born in totally depravity, knowing and living nothing but how to live evil, sinful lives; corrupt from the moment we take our first breath? Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 12:56 PM PJ, death reigned before the law was given. Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 01:06 PM I understand that, go back and meditate on what Paul said. You can not walk in truth with the natural man, if it is not seen you have to meditate until the light comes on. I raised my last to children in the lord, they where not full of sin, they needed to learn how to not yield to the flesh and mind, it was very obvious when they both came into accountability. Two I believe the confusion comes from continually hearing all the unbelief as is on this forum, there is very little bible brought here. Do you think man's spirit comes from the earth when he is born of the flesh, do you believe Satan put the spirit in man? Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 01:13 PM PJ, I believe our spirit comes from God through our ancestors all the way back to Adam where it was corrupted. (flesh begets flesh and spirit begets spirit). This is why we need a new spirit, the Spirit of Jesus. Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 01:22 PM That is not what Paul said, he said he was alive, and then he died. The most of the time the bible speaks of man it is speaking of his spirit, not the body. Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 01:28 PM Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. I remember the lord referring to my wife's body when she passed, How do you think he referred to it? For some reasons Christians seem to think of man as a body. or what is it they say human, Jesus has another perspective. Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 03:30 PM you start a thread titled "Totally depraved" from birth? And not once give any Scriptures that talk about this subject???? We get verses on how children are an inheritance from God, etc, and NOTHING about the Title, EVEN THOUGH, this is a response to a thread where I actually POSTED THE VERSES that talk about this? Okay, here they are again........... Psalm 51:5 - Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Genesis 8:21 - the Lord said in his heart, �I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man�s heart is evil from his youth." Psalm 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" And once again, I must say that the doctrine of Total depravity or total inability, does NOT mean that fallen man is as wicked as he or she could possibly be. It means that The Fall, EFFECTED EVERY PART OF MAN INCLUDING HIS WILL. So, that fallen mankind is UNABLE to choose to repent and trust in Jesus. There are the verses above, and many more that speak about the spiritual condition of fallen man. For those of us who have raised children, we KNOW we did not have to teach our children to be selfish, to lie, to disobey us, etc. They come by it NATURALLY, just like the Bible says. If anyone wishes to see more Scriptures on this subject, just go back a page or two and look at the thread titled: "What the Bible says about Fallen Mankind". In Christ, James Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 03:48 PM "you start a thread titled "Totally depraved" from birth? And not once give any Scriptures that talk about this subject????" ------------- James, thanks for the Scripture on depravity, now how about some Scripture on Total depravity ---- like so totally depraved than man cannot respond to God with the Holy Spirit working on his heart and mind.....Yes, how about a Scripture concerning that please? Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 04:40 PM 71, I will answer your question about children who die in the womb, in childbirth, and at a very young age, etc. I got food poisoning last night, and I still feel very weak. In Christ, James Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 04:42 PM Lord Jesus heal our brother james.Amen Post Reply
View Profile History	"Totally Depraved" From Birth? Posted : 4 Jun, 2011 04:58 PM I had food poisoning once, it really kicks your butt really fast! You'll be good to go in a couple of days. Drink some apple cider vinger and take some acidophilus and echinacea, and if you can find it "real" oregano and olive leaf extract. To bad people don't get this sick this fast when they ingest false doctrine...lol....okay bad joke! Post Reply

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