Thread: The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
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The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 29 May, 2011 10:02 PM
I think the subject in Scripture that is most fundamental, and most foundational, and most ignored by Modern American Christians is The Fall.
It means nothing to their theology, and if you ask them about it, they will let you know this right away.
It falls under trivia of the Bible for them.
If you question them about it you get, "Oh....yeah, well Adam and Eve, they messed up."
Oh THEY....messed up? Were there any effects from this? "uh, yeah, they got thrown out of that garden pronto!"
I used to debate a mystic type who denied original sin, and he told me that there was no way Adam and Eve's sin effected us in any way.
I told him that Adam and Eve were chosen by God to be our perfect representatives, and that WE would have done the same thing, and because of that, their sin IS our sin!
He said that was not true.
I told him to read the particular and specific curses that God gave to Adam and Eve, and then explain to me why since that moment, every single man and woman born on Earth, get the EXACT SAME punishments?
Romans 5:12,19 - sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned... by the one man�s disobedience the many were made sinners
The fact is, Adam was told by God that he would DIE spiritually the DAY he ate of the fruit, and that is what happened, and not only that, but ALL of Adam's descendents are BORN spiritually DEAD, and the New Testament describes ALL mankind as spiritually DEAD. Not wounded, or hurt, but DEAD.
Ephesians 2:1-2, 4-5 - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked... But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ�by grace you have been saved
Scripture also presents all mankind as not only totally spiritually dead, but with a will that is enslaved to sin.
John 8:34 - Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."
Titus 3:3 - For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.
Galatians 4:8-9 - Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
I could go on and post fifty more verses, but the point is, Scripture says that fallen mankind is TOTALLY spiritually dead, with a will enslaved to sin, and the Modern American Christian, Thinks that some people are searching for God, and that we all have a FREE will, and that we have the ability to repent and trust in Jesus. As if The Fall never even happened!
Now, if you say you are a Christian and you don't believe Genesis as it is written, as if it were a fable with a moral or two for a purpose, then I can understand you glossing over The Fall. BUT......If you take the Bible as it is written, then Genesis is narrative. It records what actually happened. Adam and Eve were REAL people, and they were the federal HEAD of the human race. They sinned, they died Spiritually that very day, and ALL of the punishments they received that day, were transmitted to ALL of their descendents, namely ALL MANKIND.
So, here we have the Word of God TELLING us what KIND of beings we are, and most Modern American Christians, don't have a clue because they IGNORE Genesis, and the passages in the New Testament that describe fallen mankind.
The result is, the Average American Christian has a RADICALLY HIGHER view of man, than what the bible plainly says.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 30 May, 2011 08:53 PM
James wrote - "No, the OFFER is never invalid. But because an offer is made, does NOT mean anyone has the ability to fulfill it. "If anyone on CDFF gives me ten million dollars, I will build them a house." There. That is a valid offer with the word "if" in it, and NO ONE on CDFF has the ABILITY to fulfill it."
That's retarded. Anyone can come up with an example impossible to achieve, in order to support their statement. God doesn't mess with human souls, James. God doesn't make promises unless there's a way to attain them. God doesn't offer life unless there's a way to receive it. God doesn't play games.
James wrote - "LOST people, spiritually DEAD people, can't obey His commands."
And again, if God says to seek Him and He will be found, God is providing a way to Himself. He's not playing around with something so vital as the eternity of mankind. When Jesus preached to repent and believe, He was providing a way to Himself. He wasn't playing around with those lives He was speaking too. Salvation and to accept Christ is the most important decision one will ever make or refuse to make.
If you don't like the words "if" and "seek" how about when God calls?
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not. Isaiah 65:12
How do you mess that verse up, James? You gonna say that God calls but man has the inability to answer or hear? Isaiah's verse shows man the ability to choose. Man was created with the ability to ignore God calling, to ignore to listen to God and continue in their evil doings.
James wrote - "Command: Repent and believe in Jesus. Jesus says: "NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS the Father draws them." Jesus says this Four different ways, and then Paul says it six different ways!"
Nobody argues over the fact the God draws men. In fact Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me." Of course, you don't believe all men is really all men. All men to you is limited men. Meaning only those created for salvation.
James wrote - "When Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen" He was talking about what you and I are talking about!"
Hardly. Unless you believe God is going to call those He created for hell. I don't think your theory can handle that. It makes God look more and more psychotic. I believe He calls everyone. Every sinner on the face of this earth. Not everyone accepts that call, as seen in Isaiah 65:12.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 1 Jun, 2011 10:09 AM
James wrote - "No, the OFFER is never invalid. But because an offer is made, does NOT mean anyone has the ability to fulfill it. "If anyone on CDFF gives me ten million dollars, I will build them a house." There. That is a valid offer with the word "if" in it, and NO ONE on CDFF has the ABILITY to fulfill it."
71 said:
That's retarded. Anyone can come up with an example impossible to achieve, in order to support their statement. God doesn't mess with human souls, James. God doesn't make promises unless there's a way to attain them.
James replies:
The Gospel is a promise ONLY to those who believe.
God is NOT "messing" with anyone, because the ENTIRE human race does NOT WANT to repent and trust in Jesus.
You keep pretending mankind is this open minded person with free will, that may, or may not choose Jesus.
The entire Human race is BORN with a will enslaved to sin.
NO ONE seeks for God remember? Romans 3:10-11
71 continues:
God doesn't offer life unless there's a way to receive it. God doesn't play games.
James replies:
God has saved perhaps a BILLION people already, and no telling how many more He will save! God doesn't merely "offer" salvation. He chooses, He has His only begotten Son, die for them specifically, and He has the Holy Spirit come and make each one of them alive spiritually at some point in their earthly life.
He then CAUSES them to persevere in the faith until they die.
THIS.....is God's love! He goes after people, He changes them and makes them persevere, and He finally glorifies them.
James wrote - "LOST people, spiritually DEAD people, can't obey His commands."
And again, if God says to seek Him and He will be found, God is providing a way to Himself. He's not playing around with something so vital as the eternity of mankind. When Jesus preached to repent and believe, He was providing a way to Himself. He wasn't playing around with those lives He was speaking too. Salvation and to accept Christ is the most important decision one will ever make or refuse to make.
If you don't like the words "if" and "seek" how about when God calls?
Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose [that] wherein I delighted not. Isaiah 65:12
How do you mess that verse up, James? You gonna say that God calls but man has the inability to answer or hear? Isaiah's verse shows man the ability to choose.
James replies:
Yes, 71, God calls and fallen mankind will NEVER choose to hear.
Joh 8:43-45 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
James wrote - "Command: Repent and believe in Jesus. Jesus says: "NO ONE CAN come to me UNLESS the Father draws them." Jesus says this Four different ways, and then Paul says it six different ways!"
Nobody argues over the fact the God draws men. In fact Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me." Of course, you don't believe all men is really all men. All men to you is limited men. Meaning only those created for salvation.
James replies:
If God draws every single person who ever lived, then WHY would Jesus say "NO ONE CAN come to unless the Father draws them."?
Why make a big deal out of it, to the point of DISCOURAGING THE DISCIPLES???
Starting in John 6:41 Jesus tells the disciples that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them. Then keep reading and in verse 63 Jesus tells them the ONLY way they will come to Him is if the Holy Spirit makes them alive spiritually. Then, in verse 65 He AGAIN says, that NO ONE CAN come to him unless the Father draws them, and in the next verse the Disciples walk away depressed about it!!!
Now, if like YOU say, "God draws everyone who ever lived", then WHY did the disciples get discouraged over Jesus saying this, and WHY did Jesus make such a big deal out of it?
James wrote - "When Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen" He was talking about what you and I are talking about!"
71 said:
Hardly. Unless you believe God is going to call those He created for hell. I don't think your theory can handle that. It makes God look more and more psychotic. I believe He calls everyone. Every sinner on the face of this earth. Not everyone accepts that call, as seen in Isaiah 65:12.
James replies:
well, you are wrong. There are two calls. The outward call of the Gospel, which we are to preach to all human beings. And the INWARD call of the Holy Spirit, which is only to God's elect.
You say God calls everyone, but you know that not everyone who has ever lived has heard about Jesus.
The Most ignored basic teaching in the Bible......
Posted : 1 Jun, 2011 02:12 PM
Hello:
Could this be of any help.
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, of Galatia, of Cappadocia, of Asia, and of Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, He according to His great mercy having regenerated us to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and unfading, having been kept in Heaven for you
1Pe 1:5 the ones in the power of God being guarded through faith to a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time;
1Pe 1:6 in which you exult; yet a little while, if need be, grieving in manifold trials,
1Pe 1:7 so that the proving of your faith, much more precious than perishing gold, but having been proved through fire, may be found to praise and honor and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:8 whom having not seen, you love; in whom not yet seeing, but believing, you exult with joy unspeakable and being glorified,
1Pe 1:9 obtaining the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
The faith spoken of here is the faith which a person has been given by GOD.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;
Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared.
Now about GODs will for us.
1Thess. 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
