"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." - Deut 30:6
MAC replies:
Well, not really, it was my DECISION, because I decided to love God.
And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. - Ezek 36:27
MAC replies:
Well, now it sounds like you are messing with my wonderful and great free will. So, lets drop the "cause" stuff okay?
"Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple." - Psalm 65:4
MAC replies:
Well, now wait a minute....I chose, I.....decided.
"He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.'" - Matthew 16:15-17
MAC continues:
Well, maybe Simon Peter needed God to show him, but in my case, I figured this out on my own!
"John answered, 'A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.'" - John 3:27
MAC continues:
Well, cmon, that is a bit extreme don't you think?
I mean I had the faith, so.....
"For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will" - John 5:21
MAC continues:
Now wait a minute, that is wrong. you see I made the decision and THEN I got the Holy Spirit. and THAT was why I was saved.
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father." - John 6:63-65 [All of God's operations in the economy of salvation proceed from the Father, are through the Son, and are executed by the Spirit. No one believes unless God grants it]
MAC continues:
Hey, this is all wrong! I keep telling you IIIIIIIIII made the decision, and THEN I got the Spirit.
"All that the Father gives to me will come to me" (i.e. believe in me) - John 6:37 [all whom God grants to the Son, believes]
MAC continues:
Well, this contradicts my belief in my free will, so maybe some low life Calvinist changed the text? Yeah, we should check into that.
"Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." - John 8:47
MAC continues:
NO! see this is wrong again. You HEAR the Word of God and THEN.....you are of God.
Man, the Bible keeps getting things backward!
"He [Jesus] said, 'To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that "seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand." - Luke 8:10
MAC continues:
well, again that sounds like a clear violation of peoples free will.
So, this CAN'T be right, right?
"One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul." - Acts 16:14
MAC continues:
Now, wait a minute if God "opens" a persons heart, then that would be a violation of free will! So, this verse must be a typo or something.
"...it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Rom 9:16
MAC continues:
I personally avoid the Ninth Chapter of Romans, so, lets just skip this one okay?
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:13
MAC continues:
I don't like hearing about all these verses with "will" in them.
It seems like my free will is being oppressed here.
"...no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit." - 1 Cor 12:3
MAC continues:
Again....backwards! I remember PERSONALLY saying "Jesus is Lord", and because I said that, I THEN got the Holy Spirit.
I mean, it WAS my decision right?
"What have you that you did not receive?" - 1 Cor. 4:7
MAC continues:
Oh! I know this one! I have my FAITH. Gotcha!
"In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, �Let light shine out of darkness,� has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." - 2 Cor 4:4-6
MAC continues:
Yeah, see that is also depressing and it sounds like my free wil is being contradicted, and besides that can't be true, because I think it would not be right for God to blind peoples minds.
So, it CANNOT be true, because I don't think that is right.
" In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raise...d with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." - Colossians 2:11-14
MAC continues:
Well...I wasn't exactly "dead" in sins. I mean that is a bit drastic don't you think? I mean I DID choose Jesus, and I remember doing it, so I kind of made myself alive in Christ?
"But by the grace of God I am what I am" - 1 Cor. 15:10
MAC continues:
Well.......for somethings yeah, but NOT my faith.
I always had that! And my free will too! Lets not forget my free will.
"The heart of a man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps." - Prov 16:9
MAC continues:
I think this verse is not even in the Bible. I just think some low life Calvinist put that there! Let me tell YOU, I....do the planning in my life!
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."..."Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:3-5
MAC continues:
Look, that is ALL wrong! Understand this....I saw the kingdom of God, and I entered the Kingdom of God MYSELF, of my own FREE WILL. Who said that anyway? Was it Peter? Yeah, probably Peter, he was always making mistakes! LOL!
"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved." - Ephesians 2:4-5
MAC continues:
Well, see here you go again with that "God regenerated you and then you accepted Jesus" routine. Look, I was there when I accepted Jesus and you weren't! So, I know which happened first! It was ME I tell ya! ME!!!
"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both." - Proverbs 20:12
"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." 1 Thess 1:4-5
MAC continues:
No, that is backwards again! Sheesh! I chose Jesus, and THEN I got the Holy Spirit. How many times to I gotta tell you?
"...the Son gives life to whom he will." - John 5:21
MAC continues:
Well, again that would be a CLEAR violation of my free will.
So, there must be some OTHER way of interpreting that, that I can't think of right now...........
"...Christ Jesus has made me his own" - Philippians 3:12
MAC continues:
well, only because I chose Him. HA! Gotcha.
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."- 1 John 5:1
MAC continues:
Uh....change the word "has" to "will be" and you got yourself a deal!
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD."
- Ezekiel 37:14
MAC continues:
This is Old Testament, and I am a NEW Testament guy.
"Our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction." - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
MAC continues:
Well, I supplied the conviction, because if I didn't then that would be violating my FREE WILL.
It almost sounds like the Bible is not respecting my free will.
"Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have GIVEN HIM ... I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have GIVEN ME, for they are yours."
- John 17:2, 9
MAC continues:
Uh, everybody knows that Jesus prayed for the world and died for everybody in the world. I saw that in a movie about Jesus, so THERE! God could NOT have "given" Jesus a whole group of people because that would be the most huge violation of free will imaginable! So, I am not even going to think about that!
At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one... knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. - Matt 11:25-27
MAC continues:
Uh, again, this would a violation of free will! I was wise and I had understanding, and as a matter of fact that was WHY I chose Jesus, so you need to change your view Mr.!
"Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners" - 1 Timothy 1:12-17
MAC continues:
Well, not save them, save them, but POTENTIALLY save them IF they would believe.........right?
"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted." - Job 42:2
MAC continues:
Well, except my free will decision. God has no say in that, because that would violate my free will, and that just CANNOT happen..............................right?
If you are correct that we have no free will and God puts a new heart and mind in us at salvation then it stands to reason a person without free will could never be a Ariminian unless they were not truly saved, for they do not have the free choice to believe in Ariminianism if there is no free will and they are truly saved.
Opps.....*Toto pulls the curtian open
James replies:
The term "free will" concerning salvation means that because of the Fall, mankind died spiritually, and lost the ability to repent and trust in the Messiah.
It does NOT mean you are a robot, or that you do not make choices of any kind, it ONLY means that FALLEN MANKIND DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE JESUS.
So, not only could a born again child of God be an Arminian, and deny or be ignorant of God's sovereignty in Salvation, but they could be temporarily dragging their feet because they don't personally like not getting any credit for their own salvation.....
FALLEN MANKIND DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO:
To do anything good towards God
Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; Psa 143:2; Pro 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; John 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:8; 1John 1:8
To believe in God (or come to him)
John 6:44; John 6:65; John 8:43-45; John 10:26; John 12:37-41
To understand the truth
John 14:17; 1Cor 2:14
To seek God
Rom 3:10-11
Adam had a perfectly free will, but then he DIED spiritually that day that he ate of the fruit, and because of that ALL MANKIND is BORN spiritually DEAD, and requires not merely a decision, but SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION.....they must be BORN AGAIN.
James wrote - "So, not only could a born again child of God be an Arminian, and deny or be ignorant of God's sovereignty in Salvation, but they could be temporarily dragging their feet because they don't personally like not getting any credit for their own salvation....."
There ya go again, James. Saying things about your opposing brothers and sisters that are simply not true. I know of not one person who would ever say or believe they can give themselves credit for their own salvation. If I give you a gift and you receive it, do you give yourself credit for the gift?
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: - Isaiah 55:6
Silly MAC... You can't seek the Lord. ART [adamant reformed theologist] said so. :laugh:
Sir James....Relax. This "will" stuff of yours is getting old.
James replies:
I wonder if I posted 35 Scriptures on forgiveness if you would say that "this forgiveness stuff is getting old"?
Giant said:
I find it hilarious that you insisted I had ZERO scriptural support for my argument
James replies:
You don't! Lets look at what you posted:
John 3:15 That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish , but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the WORLD to condemn the WORLD; but that the WORLD through him might be saved .
I point out: "whosoever" and "world" refers to all people.
James replies:
whosoever, just means who ever does. It does NOT mean that even one person has the ability, it just means that who ever does x will receive y, and that is it.
For instance, If I say "whosoever on CDFF gives me ten million dollars, I will build them a house."
Now, this is a true statement, and NO ONE on CDFF has the ability!
You also say "world" refers to everyone who ever lived. Well, you are wrong, because that interpretation makes the Bible contradict itself, and KNOWN facts!
First off, if "world" in that verse means everyone who ever lived then NO ONE is going to Hell!
It says, "but that the world though Him might be saved"
The "world" means people from "all over the world".
If you are going to interpret the Bible properly, you must understand the TIME in which it was written.
For all of recorded history, God only saved people NEAR THE TEMPLE. if you were going to be saved, you had to sacrifice animals at the Temple. So, now God was going to do something completely NEW. He was going to save people not just near Jerusalem, but FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. This NEW IDEA had to be taught, and THAT is what that verse is teaching people.
Giant said:
and when I posted all the verses(like I said I would if you wanted me to) you quit that one and came and started another. When someone makes a theory out of not-so-clear verses in direct opposition to the many very-clear verses, it is unwise.
James replies:
well you are doing what you say not to!
Giant said:
1 Timothy 1:15 KJV
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS; of whom I am chief.
I point out: "sinners" is every man, woman, and child.
James replies:
So, you are universalist? You believe God is going to save everyone who ever lived????
That would be contradicting a LOT of Scripture.
Every one of God's chosen people is a sinner, and THAT interpretation does NOT make the Bible contradict itself!
Giant said:
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me,ALL ye that labour and are heavy laden , and I will give you rest .
I point out: God says "all" there.
James replies:
After the Holy Spirit regenerates a person, their eyes are opened, and they understand that they are a sinner in need of a savior. The word "all" hardly ever means "everyone who ever lived".
Giant said:
We are born with the spirit of man, which has no problem with the lust of our flesh.
1 Corinthians 2:11 KJV
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
James replies:
The Spirit......in him. This verse intends to make a common sense observation, not to give an analysis of human personality. "Spirit" here refers to the immaterial part of the human being, especially to the mental faculties.
We are born totally spiritually DEAD, because of The Fall.
Giant said:
And that Spirit sealed inside us by God upon our salvation, wars with the flesh.
Galations 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would .
I'm afraid James, you don't understand the situation of our spirit and our flesh.
James replies:
That verse was written TO CHRISTIANS and it is talking about people who are already born again.
We are talking about WHO saves a person, does God save the person by regenerating their totally spiritually dead nature, and granting them repentance and giving them faith?
OR..........Does the person cooperate with God, by making the crucial (pun intended) move by their decision????
Giant said:
There really isn't any great way for me to refute your theory systematically, because the system on which you depend for the sustenance of your theory, is a bible that has been messed with.
James replies:
There is no way period. YOUR VIEW rejects the consensus of church history, and instead relies on the teachings of James Arminius. There are over a hundred and fifty verses of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation that support the doctrines of Grace. Notice just the scriptures on the first post of this thread! You have one or two verses that seem at first glance to say that you made a decision and THEN the holy Spirit came to dwell in you? I just posted over 40 that show that GOD makes dead people come alive.
I am also guessing you are KJV ONLY......That is silly. It is a translation, and that is all.
Like I said I'm not going to argue this much further. I just want to say that someone doing what God said to do to receive the reward God said He would give them, is not that person forcing God's hand, it is God being true to His nature in that He cannot lie, and His love and mercy at the same time.
As far as calling God Lord, Lord but not knowing Him, that I would say is not about election, but people who aren't actually saved in the way God says to be, calling him Lord. God says that Jesus is the Way, The Truth, and the Life and no man cometh unto the Father but by him.
Many "christians" today think they have obtained salvation through works and baptism, and call Jesus their Lord. Works and baptism according to God's Word, are important, but salvation is through Christ alone. That is why Satan has lead men to change the Bible and begin traditions that are unbiblical, so that he can obscure the way to God. Straight is the way and narrow the gate. There is but 1 way and Jesus said He is that Way. The Bible says:
Titus 3:5 KJV
Not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I do apologize for how pointed I got with you Sir James, but you have been jumping on pretty much everyone's case that doesn't agree with you.....even when they were being objective.
I hate seeing people get treated rudely.
I henceforth will not be posting in this forum again.
In some places God requires newness of heart [Ezek 18:31]. But elsewhere he testifies that it is given by him [Ezek. 11:19; 36:26]. But what God promises we ourselves do not do through choice or nature; but he himself does through grace."- Augustine
