God purposed to redeem a certain people and not others 1Chr 17:20-21; Mat 22:14; 1Pet 2:8-9 [see �God elects individuals to salvation�/God elects individuals to condemnation�]
It is for these in particular that Christ gave his life
Isa 53:10-11; Mat 1:21; John 6:35-40; John 10:3-4, 11, 14-15; Act 20:28; Eph 5:25 [we are commanded to love our wives in the same way that Christ loved the church and gave himself for it; therefore, if Christ loved and gave himself for all people in the same way, we are commanded to love all women in the same way that we love our wives]; Heb 2:17; Heb 9:15
It is for these in particular that Christ intercedes
John 17:1-2; John 17:6-12; John 17:20-21, 24-26; Rom 8:34
The people for whom Christ intercedes are the same as the people for whom he offered himself up as a sacrifice
Heb 7:24-27; Heb 9:12 [note context, in which entering into the holy place is explicitly for the purpose of intercession], 24-28 [For a fuller understanding of the indissoluble connection between sacrifice and intercession, read Hebrews chapters 7-10]
The atonement of Christ is effective
To justify
Isa 53:11 [the single effective cause of justification in view here is the bearing of iniquities; all whose iniquities Christ bore must be justified]; Rom 8:34 [the argument here is that the fact of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession is in itself an incontrovertibly effective reason for non-condemnation; if this verse is true, then no one for whom Christ died and was raised to intercede may be condemned]
To redeem and cleanse from sins
Eph 5:25-27; Titus 2:14
To propitiate the Father
1John 2:2 [�propitiation� means �the turning away or appeasement of wrath�; therefore, by definition, the Father has no more wrath against those whose sins have been propitiated]; 1John 4:10
To raise to new life
2Cor 5:14-15 [the argument is a simple �if/then� proposition: �if� Christ died for someone, �then,� with no other conditions, that person died with him and was raised again]; 1Pet 3:18
[See also, �Jesus' death purchased for his people a new heart; � faith; � repentance�. Jesus died in order to establish the New Covenant (Mat. 26:26-29, etc.); the New Covenant promised faith, repentance and knowledge of God (Jer. 31:33-34, Ez. 36:26-27, etc.); therefore, Jesus died in order to provide faith, repentance, and knowledge of God, as the fulfillment of a unilateral promise. This means that his death had a definite purpose which was intended for some and not others. His death effectively purchased faith; not all have faith; and so his death had an effective intent that was limited to certain persons.] Those whom God purposed to redeem include all who believe John 3:16
From every nation
Rev 5:9
From every class
Gal 3:28; 1Tim 2:1-6 [the first �all men� is explicitly tied to all classes of men, which gives warrant for understanding the second �all men� in the same way]
Therefore, Christ's saving work is commonly spoken of in terms of �all,� �world,� etc.
John 1:29; Titus 2:11-14 [in the context of �all men� is the delimiting concept of a peculiar people, zealous of good works]; Heb 2:9-10 [notice that the many sons whom Christ brings to glory gives a contextual delimiter to the term �every�]; 2Pet 3:9 [note that this desire is explicitly limited to �us� (Peter was writing to fellow-believers) in the context]; 1John 2:2 [propitiation means �appeasement of wrath�; either Jesus appeases God's wrath against all, and therefore hell (which is the place where God's wrath resides) is non-existent; or the �whole world� means something different than �every individual who ever lived�. See John 11:51-52, and �The word 'world' is often used in the sense of 'many,' or 'all of a set'�]
The word �all� is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set
Mat 10:22; 1Cor 6:12; 1Cor 15:22; Mat 2:3; John 4:29; Act 10:39; Act 17:21; Act 21:28; Act 26:4
Or, to indicate all �classes� or �nations,� not all individuals
Mat 5:11; Act 2:17; Act 10:12
The word �world� is often used in the sense of �many,� or �all of a set�
Luk 2:1-2; John 6:33; John 12:19; Act 19:27; Rom 1:8
Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people
God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for
Mark 9:43-44
If one were to say, �their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,� he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin
Heb 3:12 [�The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!� � John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]
God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]
James replies: This thread is about WHO Jesus died for, it is NOT about election. 1 Peter 2:8,9 says that some people would be offended by Jesus, and they were "appointed" to do that, and then it contrasts with Christians who were "chosen" by God.
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Oh Please! We both know you believe Jesus died only for the elect; the pre-chosen ones.
James, I want to answer your question to me, but the thread is off to the next page, so I'll answer it in this thread.
You asked - "My question for you is, do you think that fallen mankind has the ability to come to God?"
Actually, yes. I was invited to a Christian coffee house before I was saved. When I walked through those doors, I was not saved. In fact I was stoned. I listened to some awesome testimonies from some awesome Jesus freaks. This was in 1971. I listened to some dudes who knew basically zilch about Scripture, but knew that God had saved them, healed them, delivered them. That Christ died for them. That Jesus loved us so much He died so that we could live and shed the wretched, messed up lives we were living. They were happy. Really happy. They were sincere and it showed. I wanted that for my life. According to you, I would have to be saved before I wanted that for my life, right? Before I could come to God in all humbleness, I would have to first be born-again, filled with the Holy Spirit, right? Is that how your theology works? I KNOW when I was saved. It wasn't until after I fell on my face and begged God to forgive me for my sins, wanting nothing else but Jesus in my life. May 12, 1971, I became a born-again Jesus Freak. I crawled to God. In my messed up, stoned state, I came to Jesus. And He was waiting. God always gives us a way.
To add to the topic of this thread... Who did Jesus die for? People like me. People like you. Our friends, our neighbors. Our enemies. People we don't know. Every whosoever. Every soul that has breath.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. -1 John 4:14-15
In the Greek this says that GOD chooses a person out from among the world to be unto Himself.
The same happens when you go to the horse auction,you look over the assembled stock looking for just that one horse that you want to be your riding horse.
When you see that horse you will buy that horse no matter what it might cost.
You have chosen that horse out from among the many to be called your own.
This is the Biblical understanding of being called.
Aloha,
Surfs up,the big earthquake did not even come close.
Sometimes reality bites, yes? Hey, nobody preached that you had to be born-again before Jesus could save or forgive you. I saw lives transformed. Hundreds of them, actually. But I never saw them transformed before belief and repentance and Jesus entering their lives. Saved, born-again, follows belief and repentance.
Brother, when I go to a horse auction it is true that I may choose a horse and pay for it. However I choose that horse and have paid for the opportunity to invite that horse to be my riding horse. If the horse refuses this invitation, I get rid of it, if it accepts; then I choose it for my riding horse .... that's reality bro!
POIC, The big difference I see in your analogy is that a horse was not created with the ability to say he will either stay where he is or go with the man who purchases him. Man has the ability to choose whether he will follow or stay where he is.
