Does God unconditionally elect to save some and send others to hell?
Or
Does God give people a choice to choose heaven or hell.
Think those are the only two choices?...of course not!
However...
... these are Not the choices that are important.
Some will say "I am elect, therefore I seek God and am saved"
while others say "I seek God and am saved, therefore I am elect"
In both instances one puts their faith in a doctrine or teaching about God; they feel secure knowing they are saved because either they have been choosen by God or have chosen God.
Putting ones faith in a doctrine for security and salvation is a kind of golden calf, nothing more than worshiping the created instead of the Creator; it is subtle form of idol worship where one derives their security from a doctrine, teaching or systematic theology instead of the nature of God and His feelings and intentions toward us as revealed in Jesus.
It is not important if Jesus went to the cross to save the elect or if Jesus went to the cross to give all a choice to be elect.
What is important ....
...Is Jesus went to the Cross to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that He Loves you!
It is in this and this alone that we should find our security and salvation.
Bahira, thank you, and you are more than welcome....Although you exaggerate my part in all of this...lol!...You are always welcome to repost anything you like!
Does God unconditionally elect to save some and send others to hell?
James replies:
Yes.
Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(there are 20 other Scriptures that say the same thing!)
Twosparrows said:
Or
Does God give people a choice to choose heaven or hell.
James replies:
Yes, and ALL people choose to reject God and by doing that choose Hell. The ONLY people who will repent and trust in Jesus are the ones that God makes alive Spiritually.
Your second choice here Twosparrows PRESUMES ability and a free will.
So, ONCE AGAIN I SAY TO YOU:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Now, Twosparrows read this Scripture and TELL ME WHY Jesus said certain people don't believe:
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
DId Jesus just say, that people don't believe because they don't want to? Because they have free will, and just decided not to???
Did Jesus say that people won't believe in him, because they are not good enough, or smart enough????
Twosparrows, according to Jesus in John 10:26 WHY don't certain people believe in Him????
BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT OF HIS SHEEP.
Twosparrows continues:
Think those are the only two choices?...of course not!
However...
... these are Not the choices that are important.
Some will say "I am elect, therefore I seek God and am saved"
James replies:
That is ridiculous and NO ONE says that!
Twosparrows continues:
while others say "I seek God and am saved, therefore I am elect"
In both instances one puts their faith in a doctrine or teaching about God; they feel secure knowing they are saved because either they have been choosen by God or have chosen God.
James replies:
That is so oversimplified I won't even deal with it.
Twosparrows said:
Putting ones faith in a doctrine for security and salvation is a kind of golden calf, nothing more than worshiping the created instead of the Creator;
James replies:
Is PhillipJohn rubbing off on you? This is nutty!
Go look up the word 'doctrine'.
Good grief.
Justification by faith alone, is the central tenant, or doctrine of the Christian faith! If a person trusts in Jesus for their salvation the Bible says that they are saved. This is a "golden calf"?????
Look, I am not going any further on this, you must be having a bad day.
In Christ,
James
it is subtle form of idol worship where one derives their security from a doctrine, teaching or systematic theology instead of the nature of God and His feelings and intentions toward us as revealed in Jesus.
It is not important if Jesus went to the cross to save the elect or if Jesus went to the cross to give all a choice to be elect.
What is important ....
...Is Jesus went to the Cross to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that He Loves you!
It is in this and this alone that we should find our security and salvation.
I'll just address your last post, cause you missed the point, guess I didn't make it simple enough!
James said:
"Justification by faith alone, is the central tenant, or doctrine of the Christian faith! If a person trusts in Jesus for their salvation the Bible says that they are saved. This is a "golden calf"?????
--------
The question remains : do you trust in a "central tenet or doctrine of the Christian faith" or do you trust in Jesus?
The question remains : do you trust in a "central tenet or doctrine of the Christian faith" or do you trust in Jesus?
Apparently you do not recognize the difference
James replies:
I was not there when Jesus walked the Earth. I did not get to hear him speak in person. I live now, approximately 2000 years later.
I have the testimony of church history, and I have the Bible, which I believe is the very Word of God.
When I read it, I automatically interpret it, and I come up with principles or beliefs, called doctrine.
Here is a good definition from www.theopedia.com
"Doctrine is the term generally given to the body of teachings that result from... [weaving] together the various strands of the biblical witness, integrating them into a coherent systematic account of the Christian vision of reality." [1]
The term doctrine refers to that which is taught. The Greek word in the New Testament is didaskalia, and it is variously translated as teaching, instruction, or doctrine. Christians use it to describe the basic theology which is understood to be the teaching of the Bible. In this sense it represents the content of the Christian faith.
So, your question: "do you trust in a "central tenet or doctrine of the Christian faith" or do you trust in Jesus?"
Is to be answered, BOTH! The central doctrine of the Christian faith is called justification by faith, and that is TRUSTING in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation.
Look, back to your original title for this thread.........
Yes, we all understand Scripture imperfectly, and we are all guilty of subtle Idolatry. I just think that saying because someone believes in the Doctrines of Grace, that they are guilty of subtle idolatry is not true. Yes, it could be true. There are Calvinists who go about on the internet knocking people over the head with the five points constantly. They should not be doing that. But, if you feel that way, then I understand. I myself made a comment on this group awhile back about Arminians on this group making an idol out of their supposed free will.
It seems to me that with some Christians it is SO VERY important that they believe that THEY did the choosing and not God. I think they want some of the glory for their salvation, when it really all belongs to God. One of the saddest things I have seen on this group is when I shared Eph.2:8,9 where it says that even faith is a gift from God, and I was flat out told that faith was NOT a gift of God, and they had their own faith.
Some Christians want so very much to be their own savior, and get some of the credit for saving themselves through their decision.
