Thread: John 6: Why did Jesus say, "No man can come to me..."?
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John 6: Why did Jesus say, "No man can come to me..."?
Posted : 20 May, 2011 06:23 PM
1. Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Rom 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
2. He is therefore unable
A) To do anything good
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Psa 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
B) To believe in God (or come to him)
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 8:43-45 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 12:37-41 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
C) To understand the truth
Joh 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
D) To seek God
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3. He is dead in sins
Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Joh 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Eph 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
4. He is blinded and corrupt in his heart
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mar 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in [by] God.
Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Eph 4:17-19 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
5. He is captive to sin and Satan
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
6. He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Mat 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mar 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
Jam 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
John 6: Why did Jesus say, "No man can come to me..."?
Posted : 20 May, 2011 09:06 PM
John 6: Why did Jesus say, "No man can come to me..."?
Posted : 20 May, 2011 07:45 PM
71 said:
"Rom 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Why is it you believe that by "ONE" man's offense, judgment came upon "ALL MEN", and by "ONE" man's disobedience, ALL were made sinners, but in the same passage, the righteousness of "ONE', Jesus' gift, doesn't come upon "ALL MEN"? And please... no long copy-pasted-posts. I won't read them. I just want your answer to this one passage as to why "ALL MEN" means all men when it comes to us being sinners, but when it's said the free gift [salvation], Christ's death that brought justification for sinners, comes upon "ALL MEN", all mean doesn't really mean all. How can you take one passage and take one term - "ALL MEN" and make it say two opposing things in the same verse?
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Greetings,
Good point. I would like to add the following into the fray:
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
Before one is saved and a spirit (their own spirit) is born within them, before The Holy Spirit indwells the new believer there is one thing we are taught from the creation account that does change for any living being of the natural order:
It takes dust and God's breath of life to create a soul, it is God's breathof life that instills life or, sentience, into the dust thus making it a living soul.
We also know that when God so deems the time as at hand that His spirit of life ie His breath of life in that licing being of the natural order then returns to God and that nothing is left but (a corpse returning to) dust.
We also know that 'resurrection' and 'life' are so integrally entwined it is impossible to separate them for Jesus is both the resurrection and the life...obviously, ALL poewr has been granted unto The Son.
In order for someone to be resurrected from the dead Jesus must 'reinfuse' his dust with God's breath of life which He, Jesus, apparently is.
In order for someone to endure eternal torment then both Jesus and The Father's breath of life (since they would seem to be one and the same) would have to remain in that reconstituted dust forevermore being first hand witness to the unbelievable agonizing torture.
We are taught by God and His Son, Jesus Christ, through The Holy Spirit indweling within us to be kind, lovingl, gentle, generous, forgiving, etc and yet (to use President Obama's example) the little Hindu boy that never heard the name "Jesus" will unendingly fry in unbelievable agony forever and everdisplaying that the God that taught us all those things our entire life, most especially about being forgiving and forgiveness, turns an about face and acts in a most hypocritical manner totally out of His character we have been taught.
I don't know what the answers are here but i believe before we go defending that which we have always heard is so we best admit that every commentary, every book, every treatise ever written since the actual autographs are basically nothing more than another man's personal journey and search for salvation and being human is subjectr to all manner of error, evil and sin and that there is far more in the scriptures that we do not know than there is what little we do know.
We are told the children of this world are wiser than the children of God we might take a que from that for we know that God loves not only those in Christ but rather, "For God SO loved the WORLD"--that's *everyone* not just a select few--and regardless whether the world accepts and submits to Him or not (unrighteous servants and stewards) they are still His:
Rom_14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
For however the ELECT in Christ are saved God is still capable of finding good in any pile of chaff:
Exo_33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Rom_9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Nowadays, especially, there is far too much prooftexting and twisting God's universal Truth into a lie called rationalized truth based upon perceptions so we do not have to agonize over our consciences that otherwise tell us what is or is not aligned with the Word of God.
"...very quickly will he fight, he'll fight to prove that what he does not know is so!"-from The King & I
John 6: Why did Jesus say, "No man can come to me..."?
Posted : 21 May, 2011 12:17 AM
James,
All your Scriptures do not prove reformed theology. In a nutshell; they say 'flesh and blood will never inherit the kingdom of heaven' and it is God who provides and initiates salvation seeing it to completion for those who believe.
Btw, Saved is correct; salvation came to all men through Jesus, however some will accept it and others will reject it.
It amazes me that Calvinists who declare the Sovereignty of God as paramount would deny the Sovereignty of God by saying He has to do everything according to reformed theology.
:ROFL:
Any doctrine or theology which claims to have God all figured out...surely doesn't!
John 6: Why did Jesus say, "No man can come to me..."?
Posted : 21 May, 2011 12:22 AM
To explain : 'No man comes to me unless the Father 'drags' him' can be explained in by a simple cowboy saying: 'You can 'drag' a horse to water but you can't make him drink, but you sure dang well make sure he is thristy when he gets there!'
I think this is much the same way God operates with us!
John 6: Why did Jesus say, "No man can come to me..."?
Posted : 21 May, 2011 05:10 PM
71 said:
Oops... forgot....
"We have to interpret the unclear verses in light of the clear."
There is nothing unclear in Romans 5:18 - Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
By one [Adam], condemnation came upon all. By one [Christ], the free gift of salvation is available to all men. Simple. Nothing unclear about it at all. Unless you're a Reformed believer.
James replies:
1. This thread is about WHY Jesus said that NO ONE COULD come to Him. The first post is all Scripture, concerning what the Bible teaches about Fallen man.
You have completely ignored that, and instead wish to talk about WHO Jesus died for.
I will answer your questions in another thread on the Subject of Limited Atonement.
My question for you is, do you think that fallen mankind has the ability to come to God?
