It has been my experience that the answer is no. We all know and understand that HaShem is order, and that all things that truly show His Light and Love are as well. I ask that if you can't follow the simple request placed before you, please don't post on this thread.
Any debate on the Laws of HaShem, goes off the deep end, with passage after passage being posted. In just one post we may find as many as 15 if not more. This is an unproductive way to handle this, or any topic. As it can leave any one wishing to reply, with little option, Leave a post that is pages long, or leave a vague post filled with even more passages and little substance. This is what leads to endless debate with no answers, as well talking in circles.
For this reason, it is always best to look at ONLY ONE PASSAGE at a time. Now once that passage is called up, Both sides must look at it from both sides. i.e. Be ready and willing to argue the points you don't follow.
If the only thing we do is push one side of a topic, we fail to really look at the other side, and in most cases, fail to even hear the other side. So here is my propose, it is open to every one that truly wishes to open their hearts and minds to TRUTH. Not my truth, not your truth, and not your churches truth. Rather BIBLICAL TRUTH.
As almost all study of OT vs NT is centered around the Law of HaShem, (Know here after as TORAH) the first thing that must be found is, "How valid is Torah today?" Not an easy answer for many.
So here we go.
When it comes to Torah, the one passage that comes up more than other is Mat. 5:17. So lets look closely at this passage.
(NLT) Mat 5:17 “Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.
(KJ same passage) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
One must always take note of the passage opening. Here we are told not to think that something is Yeshua's reason for coming. From that we are safe to say that anything that follows, (until a change of topic) is what we shouldn't see as coming topass. After all He just THINK NOT, or in my words, (Don't put words in my mouth, or forget the important words I use.)
So let's do a full brake down of this passage. Looking at from both sides.
First we have THINK NOT, or Don't misunderstand. Both give the same thought behind the words. Just tell us not to entertain the idea that Yeshua came to do any of the following. So what is it he didn't come to do?
(KJ ) I am come to destroy the laws or the prophets:
(NLT) I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets.
If we read this passage for what it tells us, rather than what we wish it to say, we find that the Torah, and the Prophets are placed together. From this one should conclude that they work together, and we can not remove one from this passage with any hope of keeping the whole context of the passage.
Also, if we remove any part of this, then apply the new contextual meaning to the full passage, as well as any that may follow, do we not teach a lie, based on what we hope is true? SO any teaching on this passage must hold true to both Torah and prophets. With this understanding, one must walk carefully. If we say Yeshua removed the Law, nailed it to the cross, and so on, We also say that He has removed the prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Like His second coming, Judgment of all man kind, and many others.
(KJ) I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(NLT) No, I came to accomplish their purpose
Now the most common word to be pushed by them that stand in opposition to Torah is the word FULFILL. So lets take a look at that word.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fulfill Has this to say.
a : to put into effect : execute He fulfilled his pledge to cut taxes.
b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) Their order for more TVs was promptly fulfilled.
c : to measure up to : satisfy She hasn't yet fulfilled the requirements needed to graduate.
d : to bring to an end she came to install herself and fulfill her time at the house— Willa Cather
2a : to develop the full potentialities of He has a lot of talent, but he hasn't really fulfilled his potential.
b : to convert into reality a sense of the failure of life to fulfill its ultimate expectations— Leslie Rees
3 archaic : to make full : fill her subtle, warm, and golden breath … fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson
Now in this we find both sides, we find that it can mean to being to an end, yet we must ask, has it all been brought to an end? Are we wrong to say Yeshua will be coming back? After all He has brought to an end the Prophets, then that would also mean all prophecy has been fulfilled, or removed as they no longer hold meaning. i.e. there is no need for them.
Yet if we now look at this from a more contextual view, we know He must return for the WORD to hold truth. After all if any part of what the WORD tells us is not true, then we place our salvation in the hands of sin. Just saying.
We also know from the fact that Yeshua must come again, we must understand that He is still working to FULFILL scripture.
On the flip side.
At best I can here, so I leave something our please let me know.
This passage is clear that Jesus FULFILLED the Law, nailed it the cross, and removed it. He know that man kind can not live up to it's standards, and that to be held to that standard would leave us all devoid of hope. The passage is clear in that it tells us Jesus removed law. As is clear in your own use of Webster.
Back on topic, Sukkot has been seen by many churches as the day the rapture will come about. Now without going into a study on the rapture, a whole different topic from Sukkot, lets look at the right and wrong of it.
First off, they use a passage that is best suited for use in a study of the feast of trumpets.
1Co 15:52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.
If you will recall is the first last trumpet I talked about before. It is of interest though that a passage that pointing to the LAST TRUMPET can be changed in thought and idea to also fit the idea of 2 last trumpets. In my mind last is last. Then I also follow the idea that you win or lose, and second place is just the first loser.
The question on a lot of minds is, "What does Sukkot have to do with the church?" The answer, nothing at all. (Bet you didn't see that coming.) The truth is, none of the feast have anything to with the church. They do however have a lot to do with showing ones faithfulness, and obedience to HaShem.
As we get ready to move on, I want to know from you, do we cover the Laws that are out side of the 10 commandments, Daniel 9:26-27, or the full meaning of Sabbath and it is by a Biblical definition? I would love to have more than one voice on this, so please let your voice be heard.
"""""""The coming of Christ in A.D.70 was a coming in judgment on the Jewish nation, indicating the end of the Jewish age and the fulfillment of a day of the Lord. Jesus really did come in judgment at this time, fulfilling his prophecy in the Olivet Discourse." (The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 158) """"""
Replacement theology is a lie. Though they use this same quote in there teachings.
That however over looks this from Paul. Rom 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
End quote
IF one holds to fulfillment eschatology such as myself then I understand your position on me reaching at replacement theology.
However...
Romans 11:16
16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, aalthough a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So to me....to ME what I see John is that there is no separate church and separate body of non believing Israelites today. You either believe or you don't.
Mt.15:24
Y'shua said:
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Acts 2:36
Peter told them:
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Luke 16:31
Abraham said:
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
I just see a nation of unbelieving Jews in Israel right now unfortunately.
Judaism believes that Jesus is one of the false Jewish Messiah claimants because he >>>failed to fulfill any Messianic prophecies<<<<<<, which include:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9). Regarding the Christian idea that these prophecies will be fulfilled during a "second coming," Ohr Samayach states "we find this to be a contrived answer, since there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible. Second, why couldn't God accomplish His goals the first time round?"
11. According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David. (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24) Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his father. (Mat. 1:18-23) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.
Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.
*****We have PEACE with Jehovah through His Son's finished work . Not world peace among each other. Why does everyone think it's about them? It ALL points to Christ/The Father. There is no more tears and weeping over separation because of sin.
They take the words of the Messiah/redeemer and cast them on the ground.
He fulfilled every one of the prophecies but not as the carnal eyes see it. The Jews missed it the first time and they continue to miss it.
Your other quote:
The question on a lot of minds is, "What does Sukkot have to do with the church?" The answer, nothing at all. (Bet you didn't see that coming.)
End quote
Then why would Paul keep the feasts with the early church?
The assembly reading Revelation were most assuredly made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers who celebrated Sukkot with the anticipation that the entire world would do so in the Messianic Age. Gentiles in Messiah celebrating it now are the firstfruits of that glorious time.
Some scholars also see a connection between Sukkot and the later Feast of Encaenia (“Church Dedication”), both of which took place in the same season, lasted eight days, and were a time of pilgrimage to Jerusalem (with Sukkot to the Temple and with Encaenia to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre).
As it seems you are the only one with a voice, I see no reason we can't move on.
First a bit of info a lot of people seem to not understand. The Torah has it's law divided into (for lack of a better way to say it right now) classes of people. There laws that fall only Israel, and in them we have laws that are for the Temple Priest only, some for women, and so on down the line.
What we need is to look at what laws are for what peoples. As well as what Laws hold today. This will move rather fast, and I will stay on topic, so if anyone moves out side of the topic at hand, don't get upset if I don't reply to it. Though I am sure that there will some question in the minds of some that only read this, I will do my best to answer them as well.
I am going to have a long day today, so I will take this up when I get done with the work I have to do today.
Oddly when one looks at Torah, They see only Laws, and fun stories. How many know when the Laws became a part of mans walk with HaShem? Most will say at Mount Sinai, Some Will say it doesn't mater sense they were removed at the cross, and an even smaller group will say when Adam, and Eve were removed from the garden.
That last one we can look at now, as it leads into the other 2. Only we are going to change things up a bit. With out looking at who said what, or who is teaching what, we will look at ONLY FACTS. That come from the word.
As we all know HaShem is Just, kind, and loving. I know that some say the god of the OT was cruel, unmindful of life, with a lust for blood. As we will see however, the Word doesn't support that idea at all.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect.
Everything he does is just and fair.
He is a faithful God who does no wrong;
how just and upright he is!
Now when we understand the meaning of this passage, (one that is clear cut, and leaves no room to debate it's meaning) We should also understand that everything HaShem does, must be up right, and in it's act and meaning must show us justice.
We also know from past post that Sin is a transgression of the Law.
We all know about Cain, and what he did. We also know that HaShem handed down judgment, not once but twice.
First
Gen 4:3 When it was time for the harvest, Cain presented some of his crops as a gift to the LORD.
Gen 4:5 but he did not accept Cain and his gift. This made Cain very angry, and he looked dejected.
If there were no Laws as to offerings, HaShem would not have acted justly by rejecting Cains offering.
Next
Gen 4:8 One day Cain suggested to his brother, “Let’s go out into the fields.” And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother, Abel, and killed him.
Gen 4:11 Now you are cursed and banished from the ground, which has swallowed your brother's blood.
Here we have Cain being judged by HaShem a second time. In both cases, if no law was in place, then what Cain did could not be sin, and judgment being handed down, along with punishment, would be an unjust act.
Gen 26:5 I will do this because Abraham listened to me and obeyed all my requirements, commands, decrees, and instructions."
The Complete Jewish Bible says it this way,
5 All this is because Avraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do -he followed my mitzvot, my regulations and my teachings."
This shows us that Torah was in place, or Avraham wouldn't be created with keeping it.
Other examples, Noah, Sodom, and Lot.
I ask that you please look over what is placed before you. Not through the teachings of man, rather through only what the Word tells us.
How many people know that when it comes tithes, That to was in place before mount Sinai? Not many I am sure. Some will say I am wrong, others will need to back track on their thinking of the Laws being removed. Sadly it has been my experience neither will do anything.
Once more we find our self looking at the actions of Avraham.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be God Most High,
who has defeated your enemies for you.”Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of all the goods he had recovered.
Num 18:26 “Give these instructions to the Levites: When you receive from the people of Israel the tithes I have assigned as your allotment, give a tenth of the tithes you receive—a tithe of the tithe—to the LORD as a sacred offering.
It is a fact that many teachers of Biblical (using this word loosely) principles use this passage to get into your wallet.
Yet it is also a fact that we need to support teaches of true Biblical understanding and facts. (No this not me asking for anything. If a person wanted to pay their tithes to me, I would ask that they instead find a way to use it to help Israel.)
I was ready to edit before hitting "send" and my page switched and ended up on a CDFF member with a headline of Angel on Earth who also lives in Missouri.
18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.) 19 And he blessed him and said,
“Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 and blessed be God Most High,
who has delivered your enemies into your hand!”
And Abram gave him ya tenth of everything.
Deuteronomy 14:22
22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always.
Apocrypha
Tobit 1:7
7 I would give these to the priests, the sons of Aaron, at the altar; likewise the tenth of the grain, wine, olive oil, pomegranates, figs, and the rest of the fruits to the sons of Levi who ministered at Jerusalem. Also for six years I would save up a second tenth in money and go and distribute it in Jerusalem.
